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There's a massive population of software developers that don't care about software, don't have a passion for the problem solving, don't feel accomplishment when

There's a massive population of software developers that don't care about software, don't have a passion for the problem solving, don't feel accomplishment when they ship something. They just got into the business because of the money and the hype. These people will never amount to much and will cost companies lots of opportunity cost money. It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay people in Europe to have this attitude. But for the people who actually love shipping products to people, there will always be money and they will always be in demand. The only problem is you can't find them reliably through the front door application process - you have to get lucky or build a network to find them. They're worth their weight in gold

beardedscotsman 3y ago
I don’t understand your critique. Are you saying that European software developers don’t have a passion for shipping products?
- renlo 3y ago
  I took it to mean: it's better to pay an EU salary than a Bay Area salary if the SWE is unenthusiastic / an average performer. i.e. "Both EU and Bay Area have SWE who will ship code. Only pay Bay Area salaries for those who go above and beyond shipping code"
  - martin8412 3y ago
    I use plenty of paid software developed in the Bay Area that I wouldn't even use for free if I had a choice in the matter. The reason for a lot of successful software companies in the Bay Area has nothing to do with the people. It's disposable cash willing to throw money at an idea with a 1/500 chance of working out. As already seen, cash is running out for a lot of startups and they won't be getting another round of funding. That will lead to wages significantly dropping. We don't see the same in Europe where the wages were never hyperinflated. Wages continue to increase albeit at a slow pace.
- kzrdude 3y ago
  > It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay people in Europe to have this attitude This sentence implies that "this kind of people" exist in both places. I don't see any judgment in terms of where they are more prevalent.
  - bonzini 3y ago
    It does imply that the opposite kind can't be found in Europe, otherwise you would also be better off paying a lower salary for them.
ActionHank 3y ago
In my years as a junior dev I noticed this! The signs for me were seniors who had just aged through, but I knew more about the tech stack and problem domain or that could not just intuit a recursive function(I was flabbergasted as I watched one of them lookup how to write one). In the years since all these devs have since moved on to management rather than more senior technical roles.
emptysongglass 3y ago
Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.
- throw-way-124 3y ago
  > Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. No, it implies that there are Americans who don't care about their work and there are Europeans who don't care about their work. But the former are far more pricey.
  - macintux 3y ago
    The original comment was easy to misinterpret; I had the same thought until I reached the last few words.
- szundi 3y ago
  I think the comment implies the opposite
- tebbers 3y ago
  I read this as since Evernote is not a cutting edge, hypey startup they don’t need to have as high a calibre/pay grade of staff as they currently do have by being based in California. Hence can halve labour costs by moving to Europe and still maintain a decent standard of technical employee.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  > This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages In some European countries, conditions are more favorable to workers, and this can be reflected in the wages as well. For instance, an employee in France will enjoy 35 weeks of holiday per year (not including public holidays), and also stronger protections regarding layoffs. This is somewhat expected that wages are also lower. EDIT: 35 days, not weeks.
nik736 3y ago
Are you saying that those people are not living in Europe?
ghaff 3y ago
Oh the horror. Someone might work a job because they need money to eat even though they’re not deeply passionate about it.
- scrollaway 3y ago
  There was a thread on Reddit yesterday asking what you would do if you didn’t have to think about money tomorrow. Like half the top posts were some version of “quit my job”. This part of society is really broken. “I wish I didn’t have to deal with this thing taking up half of my life” isn’t a thing the majority of people should have to feel. I don’t really have a point. Sorry.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I’m pretty sure that’s been true for as long as there have been jobs. At least at this point I wouldn’t be working for someone if I didn’t need to think about money.
- dasil003 3y ago
  I dislike the word “passionate” in this context too. You don’t have to be in love with programming, but there definitely are qualities of curiosity, tenacity and pride of workmanship that are very important to high performing software teams.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    To some degree that’s probably true of most jobs though. There are some people that paint software as something unique where it isn’t some all consuming nights and weekends interest you’re not a “real” programmer.
    - dasil003 3y ago
      Let me separate your two sentences, because the latter is an immature viewpoint that I wholeheartedly disagree with. WRT what makes software unique is that it’s a rare combination of opaque, hard to evaluate, long-lived, mechanically unforgiving and path-dependent. In other words, incompetent developers can make a huge mess of things that future developers can find it impossible to dig out from. Other jobs have some of these aspects, but I can’t think of any that share all of them.
gallerdude 3y ago
There is also an adjacent problem, where management cares very little about features which improve things for the users. And no matter how many great engineers they have, they don’t get used on things that people would care about.
soligern 3y ago
That’s rich coming from a continent responsible for a handful of software breakthroughs.
neilv 3y ago
> But for the people who actually love shipping products to people, there will always be money and they will always be in demand. > The only problem is you can't find them reliably through the front door application process [...] Do they get found reliably enough in any manner, that there will always be money for them? Were hiring managers and interviewers onboard with this theory, would they able to recognize such a person (amidst all the people projecting that because it quickly becomes standard interview advice to project that). Is the market really for them, if they're indistinguishable? (I'm imagining "In STAR format, tell me about a time that you loved shipping product to people, totally speaking candidly and off-the-cuff, not a rehearsed ritual answer recommended by prep materials, I'm sure." Or "I had to dock you points on your Leetcoding assessment because you didn't smile while you capped the whiteboard marker, which our hiring data science team says predicts that you don't love shipping solutions.")
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vsareto 3y ago
It’s fine to be passionate but can lead to unwise decisions. Getting taken advantage of is one, accepting lower pay than you should for nebulous benefits is another. If you are passionate, surely you crave the financial freedom to do your own thing on your own terms instead of wasting time at a company full of dispassionate people.
sys_64738 3y ago
People have lives outside where they work. It's a job to pay the mortgage not some mission to change the world. If you think your value to a company makes you irreplaceable then you're not the first to sit in the chair of naivety.
634636346 3y ago
What a ridiculous comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9090135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9090135

beardedscotsman 3y ago

I don’t understand your critique. Are you saying that European software developers don’t have a passion for shipping products?

renlo 3y ago
I took it to mean: it's better to pay an EU salary than a Bay Area salary if the SWE is unenthusiastic / an average performer. i.e. "Both EU and Bay Area have SWE who will ship code. Only pay Bay Area salaries for those who go above and beyond shipping code"
- martin8412 3y ago
  I use plenty of paid software developed in the Bay Area that I wouldn't even use for free if I had a choice in the matter. The reason for a lot of successful software companies in the Bay Area has nothing to do with the people. It's disposable cash willing to throw money at an idea with a 1/500 chance of working out. As already seen, cash is running out for a lot of startups and they won't be getting another round of funding. That will lead to wages significantly dropping. We don't see the same in Europe where the wages were never hyperinflated. Wages continue to increase albeit at a slow pace.
kzrdude 3y ago
> It makes sense to not pay Bay Area salaries for these people and to go pay people in Europe to have this attitude This sentence implies that "this kind of people" exist in both places. I don't see any judgment in terms of where they are more prevalent.
- bonzini 3y ago
  It does imply that the opposite kind can't be found in Europe, otherwise you would also be better off paying a lower salary for them.

ActionHank 3y ago

In my years as a junior dev I noticed this! The signs for me were seniors who had just aged through, but I knew more about the tech stack and problem domain or that could not just intuit a recursive function(I was flabbergasted as I watched one of them lookup how to write one). In the years since all these devs have since moved on to management rather than more senior technical roles.

emptysongglass 3y ago

Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages. We're not America's backwater for tech sourcing. We're just as capable and passionate.

throw-way-124 3y ago
> Your comment implies European tech workers are somehow less passionate or that passionate tech workers can't be found here. No, it implies that there are Americans who don't care about their work and there are Europeans who don't care about their work. But the former are far more pricey.
- macintux 3y ago
  The original comment was easy to misinterpret; I had the same thought until I reached the last few words.
szundi 3y ago
I think the comment implies the opposite
tebbers 3y ago
I read this as since Evernote is not a cutting edge, hypey startup they don’t need to have as high a calibre/pay grade of staff as they currently do have by being based in California. Hence can halve labour costs by moving to Europe and still maintain a decent standard of technical employee.
yodsanklai 3y ago
> This is a harmful myth that perpetuates our depressed wages In some European countries, conditions are more favorable to workers, and this can be reflected in the wages as well. For instance, an employee in France will enjoy 35 weeks of holiday per year (not including public holidays), and also stronger protections regarding layoffs. This is somewhat expected that wages are also lower. EDIT: 35 days, not weeks.

nik736 3y ago

Are you saying that those people are not living in Europe?

ghaff 3y ago

Oh the horror. Someone might work a job because they need money to eat even though they’re not deeply passionate about it.

scrollaway 3y ago
There was a thread on Reddit yesterday asking what you would do if you didn’t have to think about money tomorrow. Like half the top posts were some version of “quit my job”. This part of society is really broken. “I wish I didn’t have to deal with this thing taking up half of my life” isn’t a thing the majority of people should have to feel. I don’t really have a point. Sorry.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I’m pretty sure that’s been true for as long as there have been jobs. At least at this point I wouldn’t be working for someone if I didn’t need to think about money.
dasil003 3y ago
I dislike the word “passionate” in this context too. You don’t have to be in love with programming, but there definitely are qualities of curiosity, tenacity and pride of workmanship that are very important to high performing software teams.
- ghaff 3y ago
  To some degree that’s probably true of most jobs though. There are some people that paint software as something unique where it isn’t some all consuming nights and weekends interest you’re not a “real” programmer.
  - dasil003 3y ago
    Let me separate your two sentences, because the latter is an immature viewpoint that I wholeheartedly disagree with. WRT what makes software unique is that it’s a rare combination of opaque, hard to evaluate, long-lived, mechanically unforgiving and path-dependent. In other words, incompetent developers can make a huge mess of things that future developers can find it impossible to dig out from. Other jobs have some of these aspects, but I can’t think of any that share all of them.

gallerdude 3y ago

There is also an adjacent problem, where management cares very little about features which improve things for the users. And no matter how many great engineers they have, they don’t get used on things that people would care about.

soligern 3y ago

That’s rich coming from a continent responsible for a handful of software breakthroughs.

neilv 3y ago

> But for the people who actually love shipping products to people, there will always be money and they will always be in demand. > The only problem is you can't find them reliably through the front door application process [...] Do they get found reliably enough in any manner, that there will always be money for them? Were hiring managers and interviewers onboard with this theory, would they able to recognize such a person (amidst all the people projecting that because it quickly becomes standard interview advice to project that). Is the market really for them, if they're indistinguishable? (I'm imagining "In STAR format, tell me about a time that you loved shipping product to people, totally speaking candidly and off-the-cuff, not a rehearsed ritual answer recommended by prep materials, I'm sure." Or "I had to dock you points on your Leetcoding assessment because you didn't smile while you capped the whiteboard marker, which our hiring data science team says predicts that you don't love shipping solutions.")

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vsareto 3y ago

It’s fine to be passionate but can lead to unwise decisions. Getting taken advantage of is one, accepting lower pay than you should for nebulous benefits is another. If you are passionate, surely you crave the financial freedom to do your own thing on your own terms instead of wasting time at a company full of dispassionate people.

sys_64738 3y ago

People have lives outside where they work. It's a job to pay the mortgage not some mission to change the world. If you think your value to a company makes you irreplaceable then you're not the first to sit in the chair of naivety.

634636346 3y ago

What a ridiculous comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9090135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9090135