4 ms·

Is the hardware really the bottleneck to sustainable device? The software seems more much important but nobody is tackling it. Having a phone with a new batter

Is the hardware really the bottleneck to sustainable device? The software seems more much important but nobody is tackling it. Having a phone with a new battery doesn't matter if I can't run the same apps as others.

mrpopo 3y ago
They also provide 5-year software support. https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/9979180437393-Fairphone-OS https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/997918043739... > For Fairphone 4, we guarantee software support until the end of 2026, this includes an upgrade to Android 12 and, later on, Android 13.
- denismi 3y ago
  Doesn't that mean that buying the newest Fairphone in 2023 gets you 0 years of Android updates and 3 years of security updates? Compared to 4 years of each with a midrange Galaxy A?
  - mrpopo 3y ago
    The FP4 was out in 2021. That's 5 years. But you're right, and it's actually discounted 50 eur because of that. You can wait for the FP5 if you're not satisfied
- TheMode 3y ago
  That's not solving anything at all, what we need is hardware that doesn't need to have its software updated constantly. If you cannot have that, I wouldn't consider it ""sustainable"". There is nothing sustainable about depending on some company on the other side on the world to do the right thing continuously. Now sure, you could answer that they are doing it better than others and you may be perfectly right, but is it really the way we want to solve it? Gossiping on every company on how often they update their software?
  - notRobot 3y ago
    You don't have to update it if you don't want to?
    - TheMode 3y ago
      I will likely have some software compatibility/security issue by using a 10y old phone. Theoretically I do not have to, but software is designed with constant internal requirement changes.
      - throwawayadvsec 3y ago
        Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly. You sounds like a salesperson telling a dev "why didn't you make our software bug free and vulnerability free????" You're free to use Windows XP and a Nokia 3310.
        TheMode 3y ago
        > Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly. Could you explain me why? I am not saying that developer should simply make software bug free, I know that this is impossible, I however believe that you could heavily reduce friction point by simply having less code, and reducing the software reliance on the hardware/OS Monolithic projects like Android prevents it from happening, you have to depend on that huge codebase to run any software, and as every software must follow Android update path, you need to continuously update your hardware
        throwawayadvsec 3y ago
        "Could you explain me why?" Well for starters bug and vulnerabilities. Hundred of millions/or even billions of devices are hackable without that much effort, why? Because people use outdated versions of their software. >Monolithic projects like Android prevents it from happening, you have to depend on that huge codebase to run any software, You could say the same about any decent OS. If you want no updates and don't care about features, get a Nokia 3310. >you need to continuously update your hardware No one is preventing you from using a 10 yo device with hundreds of vulnerabilities and 500mb of ram.
msh 3y ago
Apple does quite well on this. Also Samsung on some devices
ben-schaaf 3y ago
Fairphone is also tackling this. They guarantee 5 years but have been providing updates well past that. The Fairphone 2 from 2015 got upgrades to Android 6, 7, 9 and 10 with the latest security update in March this year. You can see their release notes here: https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019515018 https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019515018
- TheMode 3y ago
  I would rather call it a workaround. They are doing the exact same thing everyone do, but for longer. Which I guess is better, but they are not tackling the root of the problem.
  - ben-schaaf 3y ago
    Besides not making smartphones what do you think the actual root problem is and how would you tackle it?
    - TheMode 3y ago
      I believe that the root problems are programs having direct access to environment, being compiled down to hardware instructions, and these instructions not being easily interpretable (without having access to an already made interpreter) These problems cause software to depend on highly specific platforms [1] that prevent any hardware from being standalone-ly sustainable. * Environment access creates the opportunity for security risks, and dependencies that cannot be fulfilled on different platforms (e.g. asking for touch input on a desktop device) * Being compiled to hardware specific instructions obviously prevent the same software to run on different hardware, rendering them obsolete sooner than otherwise necessary * These instructions being hard to implement prevent individual users from creating their own interpreter, therefore creating the need for a centralized entity to provide it. In other word, my suggestion would be to create a new target platform that compile down to a very understandable instruction set ("understandable" referring to the amount of time it would take for a new developer to fully implement it) and leave environment access out of the spec (How the software convert an input request to your mouse position remains platform specific). This way, all software becomes permanently available without depending on any external entity, but new devices would still be free to improve the process [1] - https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/213491697-What-are-the-OS-system-requirements-for-Discord- https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/213491697-What...
phh 3y ago
As a software engineer who spend the vast majority of his time on (successfully) putting newer Android versions on the vast majority of older Android devices: Yes the hardware is the bottleneck. This pains me, because what I can do is software, not hardware, where I spend all of my time is software. An app just needs to target Android 7 to target 95%+ of users (so "only" 5% additional e-waste). And for app developers, targeting Android 7 is fairly easy (and the vast majority do), because Google provide androidx which is a compatibility library that provides backward-compatible APIs for every new shiny things. It's not 0 effort, and I understand app developers preferring Apple ecosystem here, but most of the Android app developers I've seen do use androidx and do target around Android 7. [1] So, you get reasonably 5-7 years of app that are still working. The average renewal rate still barely bulged and still is around 2 years. People are not renewing their devices because of apps that are no longer supported. IMO things that make people renew: - Things that are a bit broken but annoying enough and accumulate: Too many apps leading to slow down, USB-C port getting dust making the connection harder - The phones always look shinier in-store (because of over-saturated, over-brightness-ed screen amongst other things), so I'm pretty sure stores would manage to sell the same device over and over again by just changing the name. - Kinda the same: Despite Gorilla Glass 424 Ultra Pro Max, screen's glass do wear, and phones' screen look worse and worse over time (if you have a screen protection, the screen will still look shinier in-store, if you don't your screen will be weary, and the screen in-store will look shinier) -- I like what Rebel Tech is trying to do here, they are trying to replace exclusively the glass part of the screen. That's so much cheaper that you could do it every 6 months to make your device look new again. - Completely random software bug (which could very well be BECAUSE the device got a software upgrade, or could be just a bug in the app, or just Google decided that this was the new Best User Experience) that make people think "yeah well I get it, my phone's old" [1] I do know of one exception: Slack app. They are deprecating Android 7 and Android 8. They suck.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  For most users, it only takes one critical app to say it refuses to run because the device is too old, and the user will upgrade.
- TheMode 3y ago
mhotchen 3y ago
I think yes. It's not easy to design and manufacture a phone using sustainable materials and components from vetted sources who treat their employees fairly, unfortunately. And to do it in such a way as to be easily repairable. They've set themselves a high bar and I think they've done a great job The software can be improved iteratively. Hopefully as they grow in new markets we'll see more investment in e-OS and (hopefully) find a viable competitor to Google that's open source
opan 3y ago
Well said. Phones lose support long before their hardware is actually too weak. Also if we tried to optimize the software better, less of the hardware would feel weak.

mrpopo 3y ago

They also provide 5-year software support. https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/9979180437393-Fairphone-OS https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/997918043739... > For Fairphone 4, we guarantee software support until the end of 2026, this includes an upgrade to Android 12 and, later on, Android 13.

denismi 3y ago
Doesn't that mean that buying the newest Fairphone in 2023 gets you 0 years of Android updates and 3 years of security updates? Compared to 4 years of each with a midrange Galaxy A?
- mrpopo 3y ago
  The FP4 was out in 2021. That's 5 years. But you're right, and it's actually discounted 50 eur because of that. You can wait for the FP5 if you're not satisfied
TheMode 3y ago
That's not solving anything at all, what we need is hardware that doesn't need to have its software updated constantly. If you cannot have that, I wouldn't consider it ""sustainable"". There is nothing sustainable about depending on some company on the other side on the world to do the right thing continuously. Now sure, you could answer that they are doing it better than others and you may be perfectly right, but is it really the way we want to solve it? Gossiping on every company on how often they update their software?
- notRobot 3y ago
  You don't have to update it if you don't want to?
  - TheMode 3y ago
    I will likely have some software compatibility/security issue by using a 10y old phone. Theoretically I do not have to, but software is designed with constant internal requirement changes.
    - throwawayadvsec 3y ago
      Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly. You sounds like a salesperson telling a dev "why didn't you make our software bug free and vulnerability free????" You're free to use Windows XP and a Nokia 3310.
      - TheMode 3y ago
        > Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly. Could you explain me why? I am not saying that developer should simply make software bug free, I know that this is impossible, I however believe that you could heavily reduce friction point by simply having less code, and reducing the software reliance on the hardware/OS Monolithic projects like Android prevents it from happening, you have to depend on that huge codebase to run any software, and as every software must follow Android update path, you need to continuously update your hardware
        throwawayadvsec 3y ago
        "Could you explain me why?" Well for starters bug and vulnerabilities. Hundred of millions/or even billions of devices are hackable without that much effort, why? Because people use outdated versions of their software. >Monolithic projects like Android prevents it from happening, you have to depend on that huge codebase to run any software, You could say the same about any decent OS. If you want no updates and don't care about features, get a Nokia 3310. >you need to continuously update your hardware No one is preventing you from using a 10 yo device with hundreds of vulnerabilities and 500mb of ram.

msh 3y ago

Apple does quite well on this. Also Samsung on some devices

ben-schaaf 3y ago

Fairphone is also tackling this. They guarantee 5 years but have been providing updates well past that. The Fairphone 2 from 2015 got upgrades to Android 6, 7, 9 and 10 with the latest security update in March this year. You can see their release notes here: https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019515018 https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019515018

TheMode 3y ago
I would rather call it a workaround. They are doing the exact same thing everyone do, but for longer. Which I guess is better, but they are not tackling the root of the problem.
- ben-schaaf 3y ago
  Besides not making smartphones what do you think the actual root problem is and how would you tackle it?
  - TheMode 3y ago
    I believe that the root problems are programs having direct access to environment, being compiled down to hardware instructions, and these instructions not being easily interpretable (without having access to an already made interpreter) These problems cause software to depend on highly specific platforms [1] that prevent any hardware from being standalone-ly sustainable. * Environment access creates the opportunity for security risks, and dependencies that cannot be fulfilled on different platforms (e.g. asking for touch input on a desktop device) * Being compiled to hardware specific instructions obviously prevent the same software to run on different hardware, rendering them obsolete sooner than otherwise necessary * These instructions being hard to implement prevent individual users from creating their own interpreter, therefore creating the need for a centralized entity to provide it. In other word, my suggestion would be to create a new target platform that compile down to a very understandable instruction set ("understandable" referring to the amount of time it would take for a new developer to fully implement it) and leave environment access out of the spec (How the software convert an input request to your mouse position remains platform specific). This way, all software becomes permanently available without depending on any external entity, but new devices would still be free to improve the process [1] - https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/213491697-What-are-the-OS-system-requirements-for-Discord- https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/213491697-What...

phh 3y ago

As a software engineer who spend the vast majority of his time on (successfully) putting newer Android versions on the vast majority of older Android devices: Yes the hardware is the bottleneck. This pains me, because what I can do is software, not hardware, where I spend all of my time is software. An app just needs to target Android 7 to target 95%+ of users (so "only" 5% additional e-waste). And for app developers, targeting Android 7 is fairly easy (and the vast majority do), because Google provide androidx which is a compatibility library that provides backward-compatible APIs for every new shiny things. It's not 0 effort, and I understand app developers preferring Apple ecosystem here, but most of the Android app developers I've seen do use androidx and do target around Android 7. [1] So, you get reasonably 5-7 years of app that are still working. The average renewal rate still barely bulged and still is around 2 years. People are not renewing their devices because of apps that are no longer supported. IMO things that make people renew: - Things that are a bit broken but annoying enough and accumulate: Too many apps leading to slow down, USB-C port getting dust making the connection harder - The phones always look shinier in-store (because of over-saturated, over-brightness-ed screen amongst other things), so I'm pretty sure stores would manage to sell the same device over and over again by just changing the name. - Kinda the same: Despite Gorilla Glass 424 Ultra Pro Max, screen's glass do wear, and phones' screen look worse and worse over time (if you have a screen protection, the screen will still look shinier in-store, if you don't your screen will be weary, and the screen in-store will look shinier) -- I like what Rebel Tech is trying to do here, they are trying to replace exclusively the glass part of the screen. That's so much cheaper that you could do it every 6 months to make your device look new again. - Completely random software bug (which could very well be BECAUSE the device got a software upgrade, or could be just a bug in the app, or just Google decided that this was the new Best User Experience) that make people think "yeah well I get it, my phone's old" [1] I do know of one exception: Slack app. They are deprecating Android 7 and Android 8. They suck.

londons_explore 3y ago
For most users, it only takes one critical app to say it refuses to run because the device is too old, and the user will upgrade.
TheMode 3y ago

mhotchen 3y ago

I think yes. It's not easy to design and manufacture a phone using sustainable materials and components from vetted sources who treat their employees fairly, unfortunately. And to do it in such a way as to be easily repairable. They've set themselves a high bar and I think they've done a great job The software can be improved iteratively. Hopefully as they grow in new markets we'll see more investment in e-OS and (hopefully) find a viable competitor to Google that's open source

opan 3y ago

Well said. Phones lose support long before their hardware is actually too weak. Also if we tried to optimize the software better, less of the hardware would feel weak.