7 ms·

> try being more intellectually honest! You would have to redefine both the words "intellectually" and "honest" for to fit even within the same realm of what y

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> try being more intellectually honest! You would have to redefine both the words "intellectually" and "honest" for to fit even within the same realm of what you are doing. You have already admitted that you intentionally bring up America constantly and interject into arguments that have no relation whatsoever to America to try and play "both sides". You're both sides just happens to nearly exactly align with exactly the opinions of the Kremlin. > and now constantly saying "no to War" and advocating resumption peace negotiations? Yes this is exactly what the Vatniks are pushing, as they are the "little green men" both are lines from Vatnik propaganda. The "no to war" campaign is never about Russia leaving Ukraine and going home and is _always_ about not letting Ukraine defending itself, it's always about feeding Ukraine to the woodchipper for the sake of others. > to think anyone with a more balanced view is some kind of follower of "enemy" propaganda. Your views are not balanced you admitted it yourself, you never talk of Russian responsibility or of Russia leaving Ukraine you just spread whataboutism about America. A country that isn't even in this war. > You probably think that I follow Russian propaganda because you can't imagine someone thinking for themselves, following mainstream Western sources, arriving at the same conclusions as some of what Russia has been saying (because some -- not all -- of it is true). No I think you follow Russian propaganda because the vast majority of what you spew forth is exactly the line that the Kremlin is pushing. > Third, you're uncritically repeating all CIA talking points What are these? and what proof do you have?. > In fact, in your OWN ARTICLE, quoting from it multiple times, you conveniently omitted paragraphs which PROVE MY POINT: Did you even read the article. He literally admits that in 2014, there were Russian soldiers in Donbass, something you categorically deny, respite a first hand source telling you are wrong. I'll quote it again for you. >> https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strel... >> At the start of this summer, 90 percent of the rebel forces were made up of local residents, Strelkov was quoted as saying. However, by early August, Russian servicemen supposedly on "vacation" from the army had begun to arrive, he said. >> According to Strelkov, the assault on the Black Sea town of Mariupol in September, which prompted concerns in Ukraine and the West that Russia has entered the conflict on a large scale, was conducted mostly by the Russian military "vacationers." > You don't see the irony of you defending the US coordinated official talking points, calling someone who thinks for themselves a Vatnik? Im not defending talking points im defending reality. You just unashamedly, despite being shown evidence push the very same talking points and opinions that the Kremlin does.

EGreg 3y ago
HAHAHAHA. You are something else. Like a pot calling a gray cat black, doubling down on hypocrisy. I will respond point by point but rarely have I seen such a slam dunk. 1. You are repeating white house talking points. Everything you say aligns perfectly with what the line the white house is pushing. To this you say “I am not defending talking points I’m defending reality.” Funny, so when you do it, you recognize you are trying to defend facts and reality as you know it, and the fact that they align perfectly with all the propaganda out of the white house is irrelevant. When others do the same, it’s talking points and reality doesn’t matter. In other words, a pure double standard, diff rules for thee than for me. Sounds like your whole bunble of US jingoists has the same issue in general, that’s the problem. 2. You asked me to prove that your points align exactly with official US government and white house talking points? Well, here are just a few: a) You consider that this invasion is totally unjustified and unprovoked (not even a little provoked). Actually it never is said in that order by official sources, always “unprovoked and unjustified”. An exact phrase that begs the question from the very beginning, designsd to be systematically repeated by everyone (official government websites and mainstream media repeat it verbatim) enough times that it will right away be accepted as the default position. “The Big Lie”, repeated enough times, already assumes the result. The invasion was unprovoked in every way. End of story. No discussion. Any discussion is “whataboutism”. Also an official talking point I have heard from US jingoists, not just in this war but every war US has been involved in. b) you uncritically repeat that USA is “not involved in this war.” I guess we will have to redefine the word “in” or “involved” to a point that will even make Bill Clinton blush. It depends what your definition of “involved” is, but Bush pushed Ukraine into NATO even when its population didn’t want, when a new guy stopped the NATO deal the USA fomented a revolution in Ukraine to oust him (John McCain personally came to do so), USA trained and armed paramilitary groups including neo-nazi battallions, killed peace deals thay would have stopped the war, and shipped ever-increasing caliber of weapons to Ukraine (starting with Stinger missiles and HIMARS and then Bradley vehicles and Abrams tanks, and now considering sending fighter planes and perhaps even nukes). Their consistent meddling 3000 miles away are a major reason this war happened and is still goimg on, not just in this part of the world but others too. The difference between us is that I am able to admit that Russia was involved since 2014 in escalating the conflict, aiding the rebels. You are UNABLE to admit anything of the sort about USA. Zip, nada. Total alignment with official line of the white house, that USA is not involved in any way, shape or form in this war. b) You’ve also not seriously been able to consider that the CIA has been heavily involvsd (this time they sat out apparently) and wilfully ignored all evidence I presented to the contrary, including the Yahoo story. c) You’ve totally ignored Naftali Bennett’s bombshell revelation that US blocked the peace deal he negotiated as tanks were moving into Kyiv, and both Putin and Zelensky had agreed to a deal in principle. You ignore that Boris Johnson came to Kyiv and said Putin can’t be reasoned with and that, even if Ukraine is ready to sign with Russia, the US and UK are not. You only repeat official talking points, and ignore every inconvenient fact. d) You say that Putin started this war to restore the Soviet union, something he always wanted to do. Another talking point that is even beyond what the White House says, because it tries to at least not veer into unsupported conspiracy. It is more akin to the extreme partisan bias that democrats or republicans have. e) You believe Russia is 100% responsible, and must be 100% defeated becauss it cannot be trusted. Another official talking point that is far from reality. Some blame Putin, some blame all Russians. f) You say that NATO is purely defensive. Another talking point. Purely and uttely defensive. Very pure. Yugoslavia and Libya are whataboutism. How convenient. Same words used (“whataboutism”, “freedom”, “democracy”) almost in concert, to shut down any critical thinking or conversation that challenges the official claims, which are repeated VERBATIM (“purely defensive”, “they hate us for our freedoms”, “weapons of mass destruction”, “hacked the election”, etc.) g) You say Russia has NO (not even a small one) legitimate reasons to be afraid of NATO in any way, shape or form. NATO is just people defending themselves against Russia, an aggressor country. Their red lines are illegitimate, and rejected out of hand. Every country (except US neighbors) has the right to make its own alliances and we will make sure of that. h) You say we are doing this to free Ukraine from the clutches of an authoritarian regime. We spread democracy and freedom vs tyrants and dictators around the world. And vs China too. All happen to spectacularly match or even EXCEED white house talking points! And then you turn around and call me a Vatnik for saying “no to war”. So then explain: 1) First of all, I call it a war. That already violates the “official” propaganda 2) Second people who said NO TO WAR in Russia publicly got arrested for this. How can this be a vatnik position if the Russian government is arresting people for it? 3) Third, I condemned Russia for arming rebels in Donbas and contributing to escalating the war since 2014. This may not be anti-Russian enough for you, but it is certainly not “uncritically accepting US propaganda”. YOU accept that CIA didnt do anything to escalate this proxy war! I don’t do anything of the sort. 4) I also pointed out that Russia did far worse destruction in Grozny and Aleppo and Homs. You claim that is also a vatnik. I guess we need to redefine that term too, to be basically meaningless. In short - you are a shill for US white house official positions, and actually exceed them in your jingoism. I on the other hand am able to go against Russian official positions, but the more balanced assessment I arrive at is still not 100% anti-Russian so it seems to you I am a vatnik. I hope that you have actually understood my points and are able to address them. But there is a good chance you’ll ignore ALL inconvenient points like you did last time. It is the only way to maintain your cognitive dissonance and keep digging your heels in. I mean, you even ignored the quotes from YOUR OWN ARTICLE (which I obviously read - to find them) that show Russia was refusing to commit troops and actually pushed the separatists to make a deal with Kyiv. But what you did is simply… wait for it … re-paste what you wrote before my response! Ignoring everything I said completely! Amazing technique, no one can see thru such slick argumentstion haha The floor is yours buddy.

by _kbh_ 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

HAHAHAHA. You are something else. Like a pot calling a gray cat black, doubling down on hypocrisy. I will respond point by point but rarely have I seen such a slam dunk. 1. You are repeating white house talking points. Everything you say aligns perfectly with what the line the white house is pushing. To this you say “I am not defending talking points I’m defending reality.” Funny, so when you do it, you recognize you are trying to defend facts and reality as you know it, and the fact that they align perfectly with all the propaganda out of the white house is irrelevant. When others do the same, it’s talking points and reality doesn’t matter. In other words, a pure double standard, diff rules for thee than for me. Sounds like your whole bunble of US jingoists has the same issue in general, that’s the problem. 2. You asked me to prove that your points align exactly with official US government and white house talking points? Well, here are just a few: a) You consider that this invasion is totally unjustified and unprovoked (not even a little provoked). Actually it never is said in that order by official sources, always “unprovoked and unjustified”. An exact phrase that begs the question from the very beginning, designsd to be systematically repeated by everyone (official government websites and mainstream media repeat it verbatim) enough times that it will right away be accepted as the default position. “The Big Lie”, repeated enough times, already assumes the result. The invasion was unprovoked in every way. End of story. No discussion. Any discussion is “whataboutism”. Also an official talking point I have heard from US jingoists, not just in this war but every war US has been involved in. b) you uncritically repeat that USA is “not involved in this war.” I guess we will have to redefine the word “in” or “involved” to a point that will even make Bill Clinton blush. It depends what your definition of “involved” is, but Bush pushed Ukraine into NATO even when its population didn’t want, when a new guy stopped the NATO deal the USA fomented a revolution in Ukraine to oust him (John McCain personally came to do so), USA trained and armed paramilitary groups including neo-nazi battallions, killed peace deals thay would have stopped the war, and shipped ever-increasing caliber of weapons to Ukraine (starting with Stinger missiles and HIMARS and then Bradley vehicles and Abrams tanks, and now considering sending fighter planes and perhaps even nukes). Their consistent meddling 3000 miles away are a major reason this war happened and is still goimg on, not just in this part of the world but others too. The difference between us is that I am able to admit that Russia was involved since 2014 in escalating the conflict, aiding the rebels. You are UNABLE to admit anything of the sort about USA. Zip, nada. Total alignment with official line of the white house, that USA is not involved in any way, shape or form in this war. b) You’ve also not seriously been able to consider that the CIA has been heavily involvsd (this time they sat out apparently) and wilfully ignored all evidence I presented to the contrary, including the Yahoo story. c) You’ve totally ignored Naftali Bennett’s bombshell revelation that US blocked the peace deal he negotiated as tanks were moving into Kyiv, and both Putin and Zelensky had agreed to a deal in principle. You ignore that Boris Johnson came to Kyiv and said Putin can’t be reasoned with and that, even if Ukraine is ready to sign with Russia, the US and UK are not. You only repeat official talking points, and ignore every inconvenient fact. d) You say that Putin started this war to restore the Soviet union, something he always wanted to do. Another talking point that is even beyond what the White House says, because it tries to at least not veer into unsupported conspiracy. It is more akin to the extreme partisan bias that democrats or republicans have. e) You believe Russia is 100% responsible, and must be 100% defeated becauss it cannot be trusted. Another official talking point that is far from reality. Some blame Putin, some blame all Russians. f) You say that NATO is purely defensive. Another talking point. Purely and uttely defensive. Very pure. Yugoslavia and Libya are whataboutism. How convenient. Same words used (“whataboutism”, “freedom”, “democracy”) almost in concert, to shut down any critical thinking or conversation that challenges the official claims, which are repeated VERBATIM (“purely defensive”, “they hate us for our freedoms”, “weapons of mass destruction”, “hacked the election”, etc.) g) You say Russia has NO (not even a small one) legitimate reasons to be afraid of NATO in any way, shape or form. NATO is just people defending themselves against Russia, an aggressor country. Their red lines are illegitimate, and rejected out of hand. Every country (except US neighbors) has the right to make its own alliances and we will make sure of that. h) You say we are doing this to free Ukraine from the clutches of an authoritarian regime. We spread democracy and freedom vs tyrants and dictators around the world. And vs China too. All happen to spectacularly match or even EXCEED white house talking points! And then you turn around and call me a Vatnik for saying “no to war”. So then explain: 1) First of all, I call it a war. That already violates the “official” propaganda 2) Second people who said NO TO WAR in Russia publicly got arrested for this. How can this be a vatnik position if the Russian government is arresting people for it? 3) Third, I condemned Russia for arming rebels in Donbas and contributing to escalating the war since 2014. This may not be anti-Russian enough for you, but it is certainly not “uncritically accepting US propaganda”. YOU accept that CIA didnt do anything to escalate this proxy war! I don’t do anything of the sort. 4) I also pointed out that Russia did far worse destruction in Grozny and Aleppo and Homs. You claim that is also a vatnik. I guess we need to redefine that term too, to be basically meaningless. In short - you are a shill for US white house official positions, and actually exceed them in your jingoism. I on the other hand am able to go against Russian official positions, but the more balanced assessment I arrive at is still not 100% anti-Russian so it seems to you I am a vatnik. I hope that you have actually understood my points and are able to address them. But there is a good chance you’ll ignore ALL inconvenient points like you did last time. It is the only way to maintain your cognitive dissonance and keep digging your heels in. I mean, you even ignored the quotes from YOUR OWN ARTICLE (which I obviously read - to find them) that show Russia was refusing to commit troops and actually pushed the separatists to make a deal with Kyiv. But what you did is simply… wait for it … re-paste what you wrote before my response! Ignoring everything I said completely! Amazing technique, no one can see thru such slick argumentstion haha The floor is yours buddy.