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> I can’t do any deep transformative work when the fire is raging. We need preventative care. If people come in when something is starting to be an issue betwee

> I can’t do any deep transformative work when the fire is raging. We need preventative care. If people come in when something is starting to be an issue between them instead of when they’re at a breaking point, I’d love that. Because then, in two or three sessions, you can be good to go—see you later! This is the actual key insight in the article, not smartphone abuse. There's still a stigma around seeing a therapist: you don't need to see a therapist unless you have a problem, so seeing a therapist is evidence that you have a problem, and it's embarrassing to be someone who has a problem, so you avoid it until you have the emotional equivalent of stage 4 cancer, and then it's much more difficult to treat, takes much more time, and might not even be successfully treated (i.e. divorce). But if you go in for a regular checkup, to review your disagreements (which you will certainly have, since you're not a clone of your partner) and how you're communicating and compromising, then you're much more likely to stay in a healthy place with your partner. It's not the smartphone that's breaking couples up, it's their unwillingness to ask for help until it's too late.

sedatk 3y ago
> There's still a stigma around seeing a therapist Not just the stigma but the whole health insurance bureaucracy around it to prevent you from seeing a therapist easily too, like intentionally incomplete and inaccurate search tools.
- wintermutestwin 3y ago
  Yes, and the therapists rarely have a web presence, particularly the good ones.
sdrinf 3y ago
During covid, I did a bunch of soul-searching, and after covid, I reached out for psychologists to work through some issues I have (context: I'm single, so not with spouse, and the issue is mostly generational and geographical divide between me, and rest of my family). I did 3x2h sessions with 2 different therapist (both of them on recommendation by other psychologists). They have been incredibly not helpful, in that they were unable to empathize with the problem, offer any insights, or give tools to address any of my issues. One thing I take away from this experience, is that navigating this system is a difficult exercise on it's own, even when you're searching for one for yourself. If you add a partner, and a disagreement to this equation, the choice of psychiatrist may become an issue in itself -despite it not being their job, they will be perceived as the arbitrator for the issue, and choice of arbitration almost always decides the outcome -making this an even bigger issue than it was. I don't have answers for this, just noting that the current rage of "go see a psychiatrist" fails to answer accessibility, and addressability questions, which makes it not really actionable.
- svnt 3y ago
  The education for most therapists (LCSW) is limited and generally tailored to popular mundane issues that can be solved via talking it through. They are also limited to the insight and interest of their own lived experience. If you have a real logistical problem, or something that centers around legitimate cultural differences, I can see why most of them would have trouble offering useful advice. If I were you I would seek a mentor who had lived through something similar and accomplished what you are hoping to accomplish, if such a person can be located.
BlargMcLarg 3y ago
This dismisses the lack of therapists in the past and the lack of quality therapists. People used to do without them just fine before, yet now they are almost necessary to salvage a good 50% of the relationships or so? And what about the stories of therapists basically telling one side (often the woman) they can do no wrong and the other side has to compromise? Therapists don't even have a long history of evidence to draw from, with ever changing circumstances.
- xg15 3y ago
  There were other roles in the past which fulfilled the need for "mental checkup", even with less stigma: In particular, religious institutions. At some point, it was common that each village had a pastor. You could tell him about sorrows and grievances under assurance of secrecy and he would give you advice. Of course the "theory" behind the advice was an entirely different one than modern psychology uses, but the social role was similar.
  - wetwater 3y ago
    I think therapy has potential to do more harm than good. Since its not based on science and none of the results are reproducable. This has caused me to be apprehensive about it in the first place. Since its not an actual science I'd rather not be vulnrable to a person and let them poke and prod me when there is no gurantee of a reproducable result. When you are going to a therapist youre throwing the dice that the experiment works , with odd highly against you. There is a better chance you'll come out damaged then cured .
    - xg15 3y ago
      I mean, it's based on more science than all the alternatives. Yes, the standards are a lot less rigorous and reproducability is worse than in the "hard sciences", but at least they are trying to get some kind of objective, reproducable result in the first place. The alternatives to therapy are basically: Religion, family knowledge, random self-help books or trying to work it out yourself. In all three, the methods are even less stringent and objective than in psychology. In my experience, psychology as a field is also open to new information from biological hard sciences, such as neuroscience. Finally, note that psychology is not just used in therapy but also in advertising, UX design and tech in general, often in manipulative ways which run counter to the interests of users. Evidently, it works there. So then, why would the same knowledge suddenly be useless pseudoscience when it comes to therapy?
wetwater 3y ago
I think therapy has potential to do more harm than good. Since its not based on science and none of the results are reproducable. This has caused me to be apprehensive about it in the first place. Since its not an actual science I'd rather not be vulnrable to a person and let them poke and prod me when there is no gurantee of a reproducable result. When you are going to a therapist youre throwing the dice that the experiment works , with odd highly against you. There is a better chance you'll come out damaged then cured .
- simbolit 3y ago
  You start with therapy "potential to do more harm than good", which I agree with. Then you claim 'therapy' is "not based on science", which (a) suggests you might have a very narrow STEM-y view of what "science" is, and (b) suggests you might have a limited understanding of what different forms of psychological and psychiatric therapies there are. I invite you to read some scientific peer-reviewed papers on how comparatively (in)efficient different forms of therapy are for different syndromes. You will find, most therapies are very much based on science. And then you end with claiming there "is better chance you'll come out damaged then[sic] cured", even claim the odds are "highly against you", without any support whatsoever. For someone who cares about a basis in science, you sure have some strong opinions without any basis in fact.
  - wetwater 3y ago
    Sure , I am open to believe that psychological therapy is not psedoscience. Please provide some peer reviewed papers in reputable journals about Couples Therapy with Reproducable results. I am even willing to relax Conceptual replication, some papers with exact replication will do. >And then you end with claiming there "is better chance you'll come out damaged then[sic] cured", even claim the odds are "highly against you", without any support whatsoever. For someone who cares about a basis in science, you sure have some strong opinions without any basis in fact. Because I care about basis in science thats the reason I wrote it. Going to therapy is akin to going for homeopathic medicine to get cured. Homeopathy was popular in 18th century on the coattails of vaccination and its still a big industry in US but it has more in common with Goop than medicine. With current credibility crisis Psycological therpay will also face similar demise.
hayst4ck 3y ago
> not even be successfully treated (i.e. divorce) If one of the partners is narcissistic then one of the partners probably is the problem and divorce is the right solution. You can't really treat narcissism. You can't make a person who doesn't feel empathy and doesn't want to feel empathy, to feel empathy. I think a therapist represents change, and change can be bad, especially when someone like a narcissist threatens deep emotional harm or "war" for asserting ones boundaries. I think it's more of the dynamic between comfort and growth. Seeing a therapist is seeking growth, and it requires discomfort. You can't really have growth without discomfort. So people put it off until their "comfortable" environment becomes unbearable. Denial is an extremely powerful (and often normal) state to be in.
- zcw100 3y ago
  On the flip side I'm starting to see, "You haven't been to therapy? Well, I have and have fixed all my problems so the problem must be with you. You really should get some therapy."

sedatk 3y ago

> There's still a stigma around seeing a therapist Not just the stigma but the whole health insurance bureaucracy around it to prevent you from seeing a therapist easily too, like intentionally incomplete and inaccurate search tools.

wintermutestwin 3y ago
Yes, and the therapists rarely have a web presence, particularly the good ones.

sdrinf 3y ago

During covid, I did a bunch of soul-searching, and after covid, I reached out for psychologists to work through some issues I have (context: I'm single, so not with spouse, and the issue is mostly generational and geographical divide between me, and rest of my family). I did 3x2h sessions with 2 different therapist (both of them on recommendation by other psychologists). They have been incredibly not helpful, in that they were unable to empathize with the problem, offer any insights, or give tools to address any of my issues. One thing I take away from this experience, is that navigating this system is a difficult exercise on it's own, even when you're searching for one for yourself. If you add a partner, and a disagreement to this equation, the choice of psychiatrist may become an issue in itself -despite it not being their job, they will be perceived as the arbitrator for the issue, and choice of arbitration almost always decides the outcome -making this an even bigger issue than it was. I don't have answers for this, just noting that the current rage of "go see a psychiatrist" fails to answer accessibility, and addressability questions, which makes it not really actionable.

svnt 3y ago
The education for most therapists (LCSW) is limited and generally tailored to popular mundane issues that can be solved via talking it through. They are also limited to the insight and interest of their own lived experience. If you have a real logistical problem, or something that centers around legitimate cultural differences, I can see why most of them would have trouble offering useful advice. If I were you I would seek a mentor who had lived through something similar and accomplished what you are hoping to accomplish, if such a person can be located.

BlargMcLarg 3y ago

This dismisses the lack of therapists in the past and the lack of quality therapists. People used to do without them just fine before, yet now they are almost necessary to salvage a good 50% of the relationships or so? And what about the stories of therapists basically telling one side (often the woman) they can do no wrong and the other side has to compromise? Therapists don't even have a long history of evidence to draw from, with ever changing circumstances.

xg15 3y ago
There were other roles in the past which fulfilled the need for "mental checkup", even with less stigma: In particular, religious institutions. At some point, it was common that each village had a pastor. You could tell him about sorrows and grievances under assurance of secrecy and he would give you advice. Of course the "theory" behind the advice was an entirely different one than modern psychology uses, but the social role was similar.
- wetwater 3y ago
  I think therapy has potential to do more harm than good. Since its not based on science and none of the results are reproducable. This has caused me to be apprehensive about it in the first place. Since its not an actual science I'd rather not be vulnrable to a person and let them poke and prod me when there is no gurantee of a reproducable result. When you are going to a therapist youre throwing the dice that the experiment works , with odd highly against you. There is a better chance you'll come out damaged then cured .
  - xg15 3y ago
    I mean, it's based on more science than all the alternatives. Yes, the standards are a lot less rigorous and reproducability is worse than in the "hard sciences", but at least they are trying to get some kind of objective, reproducable result in the first place. The alternatives to therapy are basically: Religion, family knowledge, random self-help books or trying to work it out yourself. In all three, the methods are even less stringent and objective than in psychology. In my experience, psychology as a field is also open to new information from biological hard sciences, such as neuroscience. Finally, note that psychology is not just used in therapy but also in advertising, UX design and tech in general, often in manipulative ways which run counter to the interests of users. Evidently, it works there. So then, why would the same knowledge suddenly be useless pseudoscience when it comes to therapy?

wetwater 3y ago

I think therapy has potential to do more harm than good. Since its not based on science and none of the results are reproducable. This has caused me to be apprehensive about it in the first place. Since its not an actual science I'd rather not be vulnrable to a person and let them poke and prod me when there is no gurantee of a reproducable result. When you are going to a therapist youre throwing the dice that the experiment works , with odd highly against you. There is a better chance you'll come out damaged then cured .

simbolit 3y ago
You start with therapy "potential to do more harm than good", which I agree with. Then you claim 'therapy' is "not based on science", which (a) suggests you might have a very narrow STEM-y view of what "science" is, and (b) suggests you might have a limited understanding of what different forms of psychological and psychiatric therapies there are. I invite you to read some scientific peer-reviewed papers on how comparatively (in)efficient different forms of therapy are for different syndromes. You will find, most therapies are very much based on science. And then you end with claiming there "is better chance you'll come out damaged then[sic] cured", even claim the odds are "highly against you", without any support whatsoever. For someone who cares about a basis in science, you sure have some strong opinions without any basis in fact.
- wetwater 3y ago
  Sure , I am open to believe that psychological therapy is not psedoscience. Please provide some peer reviewed papers in reputable journals about Couples Therapy with Reproducable results. I am even willing to relax Conceptual replication, some papers with exact replication will do. >And then you end with claiming there "is better chance you'll come out damaged then[sic] cured", even claim the odds are "highly against you", without any support whatsoever. For someone who cares about a basis in science, you sure have some strong opinions without any basis in fact. Because I care about basis in science thats the reason I wrote it. Going to therapy is akin to going for homeopathic medicine to get cured. Homeopathy was popular in 18th century on the coattails of vaccination and its still a big industry in US but it has more in common with Goop than medicine. With current credibility crisis Psycological therpay will also face similar demise.

hayst4ck 3y ago

> not even be successfully treated (i.e. divorce) If one of the partners is narcissistic then one of the partners probably is the problem and divorce is the right solution. You can't really treat narcissism. You can't make a person who doesn't feel empathy and doesn't want to feel empathy, to feel empathy. I think a therapist represents change, and change can be bad, especially when someone like a narcissist threatens deep emotional harm or "war" for asserting ones boundaries. I think it's more of the dynamic between comfort and growth. Seeing a therapist is seeking growth, and it requires discomfort. You can't really have growth without discomfort. So people put it off until their "comfortable" environment becomes unbearable. Denial is an extremely powerful (and often normal) state to be in.

zcw100 3y ago
On the flip side I'm starting to see, "You haven't been to therapy? Well, I have and have fixed all my problems so the problem must be with you. You really should get some therapy."