6 ms·

What's the logo for BASIC? for Pascal? for COBOL? for FORTRAN? for C (other than the light blue letter 'C' on the 1970s K&R book)? For that matter, what's the l

What's the logo for BASIC? for Pascal? for COBOL? for FORTRAN? for C (other than the light blue letter 'C' on the 1970s K&R book)? For that matter, what's the logo for English or French or German (national flags aren't language logos). Since when do languages have logos? Logos are trademarks of companies, not languages. This is confused thinking.

splatzone 3y ago
Why shouldn't languages have a logo? It's not just a commercial/corporate thing, a clear visual identity can help tie any project together. It makes it easier for users to identify material and organisations related to the project and its ecosystem. As an example, the Python, PHP and Java logos are very distinctive in their own ways, and when you're sifting through YouTube tutorials as a beginner, seeing the logos pop up in thumbnails can help you spot material that's relevant to your learning.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Even vulnerabilities and exploits have brands and logos. It's a rite of passage.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    But should they?
    - _nalply 3y ago
      If not, how would you prevent it? Electrocute the perpetrators? Then how to catch them first?
    - infotogivenm 3y ago
      Vulnerabilities? I think if they are pervasive enough to enter mainstream consciousness, it can help with general awareness. Does every vuln with a logo, deserve a logo? Probably not. But such is life.
jzb 3y ago
I notice all your examples are non-FOSS and older than Perl. Python, Ruby, Go, Rust, have mascots and logos. They’re more than languages, they’re projects with healthy communities that have their own identities and the camel is part of Perl’s.
zokier 3y ago
Java might have been bit of a trendsetter here with both a logo (blue/red coffee cup) and a mascot (duke). Ruby and Python started having more distinct logos in 2006 both, I suspect they ended up being fairly influential here. Of note, Lua logo has 1998 copyright, so that is an early example too. edit: php logo from 2000 is another notable early example
- eesmith 3y ago
  Tcl's feather logo came out about the same time as Java's, from the same design group at Sun that developed the Java logo, says http://www.demailly.com/tcl/about/logos.html http://www.demailly.com/tcl/about/logos.html .
peteforde 3y ago
While everyone is welcome to their opinion... 1. Shouldn't we aspire to let the community themselves decide if their passions would be furthered by a recognizable visual identity, and not impose our perspective on them in a patronizing way? 2. Your statement mostly conveys that you haven't learned much about the power of branding in general. A logo is not a brand, but often stands as the most recognizable avatar of a brand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4te2QNsHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4te2QNsHY It's nearly impossible to develop a healthy brand that doesn't have a recognizable logo. And you need a healthy brand to be successful in marketing that brand. I happen to believe that OSS contributors deserve to see that their projects put their best foot forward so that as many people can benefit as possible. Since I know Tim O'Reilly wants this as well, hopefully he'll be happy to sign off on this request.
- eesmith 3y ago
  > It's nearly impossible to develop a healthy brand that doesn't have a recognizable logo. Is Proctor&Gamble a healthy brand? Is its logo recognizable, were the big "P&G" not it? (As another example, I recognize the Nestlé name brand, but don't recognize its logo with the three birds and the nest.) If it isn't a healthy brand, how would you describe the Proctor&Gamble brand? Unhealthy? And how would changing that brand improve things? I ask because it seems that healthy retail brand ends up with a recognizable logo in large part simply because so many people know it, making it hard to disentangle how important the logo is vs. the slogan, the product name, its effectiveness, and other properties. And it would seem those retail brand principles apply less to, for example, multi-national conglomerates. To be clear, that doesn't mean a recognized logo won't help a programming language advocacy and support group. I'm instead pointing out that I can think of quite a few seemingly healthy brands with forgettable logos, while you suggest that's nearly impossible. (To be doubly clear, it's nearly impossible to establish a well-known brand in the first place, either with or without a recognizable logo.)
  - peteforde 3y ago
    I have to commend you, because this is the most impressively Apples to Flamethrowers comparison I've seen on Hacker News in 15 years.
quickthrower2 3y ago
The nearest thing to a logo for spoken languages is a national flag. From a pragmatic point of view it is a decent choice.
- gonzo 3y ago
  Which flag do we use for French? English? Spanish?
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    France, United Kingdom, Spain By defacto really, because that is what I am used to seeing online.
    - brobdingnagians 3y ago
      In Europe, English uses the UK flag, in the US it is usually the US flag. I wonder if a similar thing happens in Brazil with Portuguese, etc? Or what it would be for a Quebec company for french?
eesmith 3y ago
On the other hand, TeX has a logo, as you can see in this 1988 article by Knuth. https://tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb07-2/tb15knutlogo.pdf https://tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb07-2/tb15knutlogo.pdf > Logos are trademarks of companies At least in the US, that's incorrect. Private persons people may hold trademarks too. That trademark my be registered with the federal or state government, but even without registration there's still a common law trademark. If you start selling artisan lemonade from your sidewalk (make sure you have the proper licenses first!) and make a distinctive logo for it, then - poof! - that logo is a common law trademark. No paperwork needed. Even if it's the trademark is not enforced, it's still a logo. A 5th grade sports team can decide to call themselves "The Flying Stone", make a design with a stone bearing wings, and put it on their shirts. Poof, that's a logo. > national flags aren't language logos ... why would they? The US doesn't have an official language. Many countries have multiple official languages. Most languages don't have a strong association with a single country. And Esperanto has had a flag for over a century, representing supranational solidarity.
Someone 3y ago
I think the heuristic is “single-implementation languages have a logo”. So, in some sense, you could say the implementation has a logo that is also associated with the language. (And yes, ‘single implementation must be interpreted a bit loosely. Python qualifies, for example)
pallas_athena 3y ago
What's the logo for Python? What's the logo for Esperanto?

splatzone 3y ago

Why shouldn't languages have a logo? It's not just a commercial/corporate thing, a clear visual identity can help tie any project together. It makes it easier for users to identify material and organisations related to the project and its ecosystem. As an example, the Python, PHP and Java logos are very distinctive in their own ways, and when you're sifting through YouTube tutorials as a beginner, seeing the logos pop up in thumbnails can help you spot material that's relevant to your learning.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Even vulnerabilities and exploits have brands and logos. It's a rite of passage.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  But should they?
  - _nalply 3y ago
    If not, how would you prevent it? Electrocute the perpetrators? Then how to catch them first?
  - infotogivenm 3y ago
    Vulnerabilities? I think if they are pervasive enough to enter mainstream consciousness, it can help with general awareness. Does every vuln with a logo, deserve a logo? Probably not. But such is life.

jzb 3y ago

I notice all your examples are non-FOSS and older than Perl. Python, Ruby, Go, Rust, have mascots and logos. They’re more than languages, they’re projects with healthy communities that have their own identities and the camel is part of Perl’s.

zokier 3y ago

Java might have been bit of a trendsetter here with both a logo (blue/red coffee cup) and a mascot (duke). Ruby and Python started having more distinct logos in 2006 both, I suspect they ended up being fairly influential here. Of note, Lua logo has 1998 copyright, so that is an early example too. edit: php logo from 2000 is another notable early example

eesmith 3y ago
Tcl's feather logo came out about the same time as Java's, from the same design group at Sun that developed the Java logo, says http://www.demailly.com/tcl/about/logos.html http://www.demailly.com/tcl/about/logos.html .

peteforde 3y ago

While everyone is welcome to their opinion... 1. Shouldn't we aspire to let the community themselves decide if their passions would be furthered by a recognizable visual identity, and not impose our perspective on them in a patronizing way? 2. Your statement mostly conveys that you haven't learned much about the power of branding in general. A logo is not a brand, but often stands as the most recognizable avatar of a brand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4te2QNsHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO4te2QNsHY It's nearly impossible to develop a healthy brand that doesn't have a recognizable logo. And you need a healthy brand to be successful in marketing that brand. I happen to believe that OSS contributors deserve to see that their projects put their best foot forward so that as many people can benefit as possible. Since I know Tim O'Reilly wants this as well, hopefully he'll be happy to sign off on this request.

eesmith 3y ago
> It's nearly impossible to develop a healthy brand that doesn't have a recognizable logo. Is Proctor&Gamble a healthy brand? Is its logo recognizable, were the big "P&G" not it? (As another example, I recognize the Nestlé name brand, but don't recognize its logo with the three birds and the nest.) If it isn't a healthy brand, how would you describe the Proctor&Gamble brand? Unhealthy? And how would changing that brand improve things? I ask because it seems that healthy retail brand ends up with a recognizable logo in large part simply because so many people know it, making it hard to disentangle how important the logo is vs. the slogan, the product name, its effectiveness, and other properties. And it would seem those retail brand principles apply less to, for example, multi-national conglomerates. To be clear, that doesn't mean a recognized logo won't help a programming language advocacy and support group. I'm instead pointing out that I can think of quite a few seemingly healthy brands with forgettable logos, while you suggest that's nearly impossible. (To be doubly clear, it's nearly impossible to establish a well-known brand in the first place, either with or without a recognizable logo.)
- peteforde 3y ago
  I have to commend you, because this is the most impressively Apples to Flamethrowers comparison I've seen on Hacker News in 15 years.

quickthrower2 3y ago

The nearest thing to a logo for spoken languages is a national flag. From a pragmatic point of view it is a decent choice.

gonzo 3y ago
Which flag do we use for French? English? Spanish?
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  France, United Kingdom, Spain By defacto really, because that is what I am used to seeing online.
  - brobdingnagians 3y ago
    In Europe, English uses the UK flag, in the US it is usually the US flag. I wonder if a similar thing happens in Brazil with Portuguese, etc? Or what it would be for a Quebec company for french?

eesmith 3y ago

On the other hand, TeX has a logo, as you can see in this 1988 article by Knuth. https://tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb07-2/tb15knutlogo.pdf https://tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb07-2/tb15knutlogo.pdf > Logos are trademarks of companies At least in the US, that's incorrect. Private persons people may hold trademarks too. That trademark my be registered with the federal or state government, but even without registration there's still a common law trademark. If you start selling artisan lemonade from your sidewalk (make sure you have the proper licenses first!) and make a distinctive logo for it, then - poof! - that logo is a common law trademark. No paperwork needed. Even if it's the trademark is not enforced, it's still a logo. A 5th grade sports team can decide to call themselves "The Flying Stone", make a design with a stone bearing wings, and put it on their shirts. Poof, that's a logo. > national flags aren't language logos ... why would they? The US doesn't have an official language. Many countries have multiple official languages. Most languages don't have a strong association with a single country. And Esperanto has had a flag for over a century, representing supranational solidarity.

Someone 3y ago

I think the heuristic is “single-implementation languages have a logo”. So, in some sense, you could say the implementation has a logo that is also associated with the language. (And yes, ‘single implementation must be interpreted a bit loosely. Python qualifies, for example)

pallas_athena 3y ago

What's the logo for Python? What's the logo for Esperanto?