7 ms·

> Most of the 160-200 million laptops sold each year are replacement purchases. The average laptop is replaced every 3 years (in business) to five years (elsewh

> Most of the 160-200 million laptops sold each year are replacement purchases. The average laptop is replaced every 3 years (in business) to five years (elsewhere). 3 My 5.7 years per laptop experience is not exceptional. This is one of the many aspects I don't like about how laptops are designed today. Even with OEM desktops like my Dell Precision T1700, it's still serviceable and fixable today without a whole lot of effort. For both my Dell and Supermicro workstations, they basically last 10+ years, and I've got a lot of options to keep them going; I wish I could say the same about laptops. I really wish I could get a new 2k screen for the old Dell Latitude E6530 I have -- it's built a lot more robustly than my newer latitude. I really would like to see our government mandate user serviceable parts (kind of like how the EU apparently mandated replaceable batteries, which is a huge win), as there's so many older designs that would continue to chug along with a few fixes, like IBM era Thinkpads or some the more robustly designed Latitudes. Lenovo has been going the wrong direction lately...I have sworn them off after having a two P1s and a P53, which were gently used and taken care of, die in under 2 years.

jwcooper 3y ago
This is what Framework set out to do (and is pulling it off so far...I'm typing this out on my 12th gen framework). They have an entire marketplace of replacement parts you can buy, including screens. They've even got battery upgrades (increased capacity), better speakers, new screen type (matte) that you can retrofit into your existing Framework. They support upgrading from their first gen laptop (admittedly they are a very young company, but their promise has held up thus far). Hopefully more folks that are interested in upgradability and repairability are purchasing frameworks to show other companies that it's worth it to do (I'm unaffiliated with Framework, just a customer).
- a1o 3y ago
  I wish something like Framework could be more popular so it could be easily available on other countries. As is, the impact something like it is small. Hopefully this changes at some point.
  - Kye 3y ago
    It's still very new and working out the kinks in the concept. I wouldn't expect it to take off in the current state. The videos they've done on Linus Tech Tips (Linus is an investor) keep me optimistic about their prospects.
- akmittal 3y ago
  I just upgraded RAM(4 -> 12 GB) and HDD to SSD of a 8 years old laptop and it became a lot more responsive. Laptops now a days are not upgradable and companies claim they are doing so to build lighter laptops but framework is proving all of them wrong
  - chadash 3y ago
    > and companies claim they are doing so to build lighter laptops A framework 13" is 15.9mm thick and weighs 2.9 lbs. A macbook air M1 is 16.1mm thick and weights 2.8 lbs. So it's pretty darn close. I'm sure that thinner and lighter laptops exist, but yeah, the framework is pretty thin. And at a certain point, it stops mattering. Being thinner wouldn't really provide much utility at this point. The fact is that repairability is just not profitable for companies like Apple or Dell. They would rather you replace your entire computer when your screen cracks. But I very much hope that enough people do care about repairability to keep Framework afloat (and profitable). As an owner, I was astonished how easy it is to take this thing apart and replace things; I would guess that most of my non-technical friends can probably replace a monitor or a touchpad on one of these laptops with very little difficulty.
    - noirbot 3y ago
      The tradeoff is that the Framework's battery life is garbage. I had laptops a decade ago with 2x the battery life. I'm lucky to get 3 hours of battery doing web browsing, and standby/hibernate on the Intel processor in it is so bad that it'll fully discharge in less than 12 hours doing literally nothing. I really want to like it, but my Framework is literally a worse user experience than my old 2016 Macbook Air and it's probably 3x the price at this point. Playing even a lightweight game makes the fans ramp to a frustratingly loud level and I essentially have to keep it plugged in at all times. It's also hard to express how oddly problematic having a 4x3 display in 2023 is. Almost literally nothing expects that.
      - ornornor 3y ago
        A cursory search shows that various testing websites have measured battery life to be 7–8h on the framework which is decent I’d think? I have no firsthand experience but 3h in comparison seems low. Also, web browsing can be intensive if you use js heavy sites like linked in or even the GitHub homepage (when not logged in)
- grudg3 3y ago
  Yes, Frameworks are amazing on paper, and yet I still can't purchase one in New Zealand but I can easily purchase Apple hardware.
  - layer8 3y ago
    It’s straightforward to use a shipping forwarder, just adds a bit to the cost.
    - simonsmithies 3y ago
      NZ Post’s forwarder - YouShop - has worked well for me in the past. https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop
    - grudg3 3y ago
      It adds a lot to the cost, and I am not protected by the New Zealand consumer laws in case something isn't right with the product. Way too risky for my liking.
      - fennecfoxy 3y ago
        I'm a Kiwi (now in the UK) and you're absolutely right. I always avoided forwarders because: no company warranty, no consumer protection, etc. Forwarders are just grey market. Good for cheap items, but not so much for devices. I miss the Kiwi attitude & the paradise on Earth environment, but I certainly don't miss being left out of the rest of the world, no easy access to products & services and long shipping times besides. Have an L&P for me bra.
- Lio 3y ago
  What I really appreciate with Framework is that they have little kits that let you repurpose the old insides of your laptop when you upgrade the processor or SSD. That's a nice touch that means you're not just throwing that stuff away.
- Llamamoe 3y ago
  How does it compare cost-wise to just buying normal used or even new laptops?
fuzztester 3y ago
>For both my Dell and Supermicro workstations, they basically last 10+ years, and I've got a lot of options to keep them going; I wish I could say the same about laptops. I really wish I could get a new 2k screen for the old Dell Latitude E6530 I have -- it's built a lot more robustly than my newer latitude. Agreed. When I was checking out new laptops to buy one, in shops, about a year ago, I was shocked to see the lower quality and sturdiness of the cases and keyboards. For no apparent gain except possible lightness. I think laptop makers have started doing an auto industry in terms of built in or planned obsolescence. Edit: just like mobile phone makers.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  It's been like this for at least 2 decades now.
oneplane 3y ago
Some of the laptop issues are a chain of dependencies that en up with mechanical and power envelope. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but say you want to go from 720p to 2k, that also requires more power, a bit for the panel and a bit for the backlight. The mainboard might not have a TCON and eDP or LVDS transceiver to drive such a panel, and the GPU might not be able to handle it either. So now that new panel needs three more things: - Power supply - Display transmission - GPU And those things in turn need more (or well, 'different') space, which in turn might not fit in the existing chassis. And if it does, you might still have the thermal envelope issue where the chassis can't support the right airflow in the right places, or the cooling solution might not. None of those are impossible to solve, but they also aren't as simple as "just give me a different panel", because it's not really just about the single component, it almost never is. We have had a lot of luck in the past with a single 'family' of computers (usually largely designed by compal, Foxconn etc.) having interchangeable parts, and the base models essentially being downgraded versions of the top-tier model, which means that as long as you stay within that family, you get to upgrade parts along the way. Framework does an excellent job of keeping everything that still fits within the same envelope going. But if at any point the current eDP interface needs to be replaced to support higher bandwidth, that means that the possible combinations between panels, cables and mainboards is now a whole lot more complicated. Some panels might only work with some mainboards, which might mean you have to replace both at the same time, greatly reducing the usefulness of what remains. Currently we don't have a huge gap between previous generations and current generations, but I'm very curious what's going to happen when we do make another significant jump. Only time will tell.
- 6510 3y ago
  I imagine by that time you've used their market place often enough. Their used parts shop might be more awesome than the laptops. I can only imagine what it will look like in a few decades. Should be awesome. In contrast, I'm the 4th owner of a "free" asus laptop that broke shortly after it was purchased (by the first owner) They never bothered to return it. I have a pretty good idea what is wrong with it but there is about 4 cm of space when I open it. I need some long strong pliers to pull some distant plugs. In a repair video from someone who really knows what they are doing, he reaches deep inside, pulls the plug with great force then smashes the pliers against the pcb making the laptop jump on his desk. "this is normal" he said and proceeded to pull the rest the same way. I've been gathering the courage to do it for about a year now.
shortrounddev2 3y ago
My T420 is still running strong 12 years later. I don't use it for much since I'm not on Linux anymore, but I occasionally open it up and play with it. I'm using a Dell Inspiron now and I'm hoping it lasts a while.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Yup. I have two working t420s (t420s is thinner than t420 and I think puts it in the realm of "acceptable" in modern standards. T420 I find is mostly a stationary laptop). They run upgraded ssd drives and ram. I also recently stocked up on 3 used t480 as it's the last generation with easily removable battery as well as drive and memory. Those should last me a while! My primary daily driver is the 6 year old t25 - basically t470 but with good keyboard. But I think... That's kinda the point. These laptops were upgradeable but modern ones are not. T490 and onward don't have external replaceable battery. A lot of modern thinkpads have soldered ram. And none of them have the elegance of ultrabay of yore.
  - jaredhallen 3y ago
    Most of the newer business class laptops I've seen just have a few screws to pull the back panel and replace the battery. It takes about 5-10 minutes.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      Right but that's a) compared to 5 seconds with external battery and b) requires certain comfort and skill level and c) as you point only for specific laptops
      - ornornor 3y ago
        Regarding c), I personally never get anything but business laptops. The consumer ones are just too crappy, plastic everywhere, won’t last more than 3–4 years, underspecced hinges, and plastic clips. The business ones are the same price or cheaper past the three years mark when IT departments all get rid of them at the same time and spare parts are plentiful for the next decade.
prmph 3y ago
I swore off those Chinese manufacturers (Lenovo, Asus, Acer, etc) many years ago for similar reasons and haven't looked back. I just don't buy any products from them, laptops included. Surprised people are still having to learn the hard way that their products are crap.
- scq 3y ago
  Asus and Acer are Taiwanese, not Chinese, and none of them actually manufacture their own laptops in house, that is outsourced to manufacturing partners. Nearly all laptops on the market, regardless of brand, are manufactured by 6 Taiwanese companies: Quanta, Compal, Wistron, Inventec, Pegatron, and Foxconn. And yes, that includes Framework, who use Compal as their manufacturing partner.
  - nukeman 3y ago
    Is there any way to link up which designer works with which contract manufacturer (or at least the models)? And are there any exceptions? I seem to recall Alienware stuff was made in Florida at some point.
    - userbinator 3y ago
      Search for schematics, or look for identifying clues on the motherboard. All the OEMs have more-or-less distinguishable styles and part numbering schemes. E.g. a part number beginning with "LA-" followed by a few digits, then possibly another character, indicates Compal (LA-8331P, LA-4921P, LA-A994P.) Inventec likes to use 6050Annnnnnn (6050A2266501, 6050A2493101.) Quanta uses a few characters/digits code (e.g. ZHY, LX89, ZE6.)
    - solardev 3y ago
      Alienware is just owned by Dell now and seems to put out overpriced poorly built chunky machines that target gamers with too much money. Razer and Falcon NW might be better from the chassis design side, or Sager and Clevo from the OEM value side. The Alienware laptop I had for a week or two a few years ago was the worst laptop I've ever used. Noisy and hot and expensive and poor ergonomics and just all around unimpressive, poor hardware masked by a once respected brand name.

jwcooper 3y ago

This is what Framework set out to do (and is pulling it off so far...I'm typing this out on my 12th gen framework). They have an entire marketplace of replacement parts you can buy, including screens. They've even got battery upgrades (increased capacity), better speakers, new screen type (matte) that you can retrofit into your existing Framework. They support upgrading from their first gen laptop (admittedly they are a very young company, but their promise has held up thus far). Hopefully more folks that are interested in upgradability and repairability are purchasing frameworks to show other companies that it's worth it to do (I'm unaffiliated with Framework, just a customer).

a1o 3y ago
I wish something like Framework could be more popular so it could be easily available on other countries. As is, the impact something like it is small. Hopefully this changes at some point.
- Kye 3y ago
  It's still very new and working out the kinks in the concept. I wouldn't expect it to take off in the current state. The videos they've done on Linus Tech Tips (Linus is an investor) keep me optimistic about their prospects.
akmittal 3y ago
I just upgraded RAM(4 -> 12 GB) and HDD to SSD of a 8 years old laptop and it became a lot more responsive. Laptops now a days are not upgradable and companies claim they are doing so to build lighter laptops but framework is proving all of them wrong
- chadash 3y ago
  > and companies claim they are doing so to build lighter laptops A framework 13" is 15.9mm thick and weighs 2.9 lbs. A macbook air M1 is 16.1mm thick and weights 2.8 lbs. So it's pretty darn close. I'm sure that thinner and lighter laptops exist, but yeah, the framework is pretty thin. And at a certain point, it stops mattering. Being thinner wouldn't really provide much utility at this point. The fact is that repairability is just not profitable for companies like Apple or Dell. They would rather you replace your entire computer when your screen cracks. But I very much hope that enough people do care about repairability to keep Framework afloat (and profitable). As an owner, I was astonished how easy it is to take this thing apart and replace things; I would guess that most of my non-technical friends can probably replace a monitor or a touchpad on one of these laptops with very little difficulty.
  - noirbot 3y ago
    The tradeoff is that the Framework's battery life is garbage. I had laptops a decade ago with 2x the battery life. I'm lucky to get 3 hours of battery doing web browsing, and standby/hibernate on the Intel processor in it is so bad that it'll fully discharge in less than 12 hours doing literally nothing. I really want to like it, but my Framework is literally a worse user experience than my old 2016 Macbook Air and it's probably 3x the price at this point. Playing even a lightweight game makes the fans ramp to a frustratingly loud level and I essentially have to keep it plugged in at all times. It's also hard to express how oddly problematic having a 4x3 display in 2023 is. Almost literally nothing expects that.
    - ornornor 3y ago
      A cursory search shows that various testing websites have measured battery life to be 7–8h on the framework which is decent I’d think? I have no firsthand experience but 3h in comparison seems low. Also, web browsing can be intensive if you use js heavy sites like linked in or even the GitHub homepage (when not logged in)
grudg3 3y ago
Yes, Frameworks are amazing on paper, and yet I still can't purchase one in New Zealand but I can easily purchase Apple hardware.
- layer8 3y ago
  It’s straightforward to use a shipping forwarder, just adds a bit to the cost.
  - simonsmithies 3y ago
    NZ Post’s forwarder - YouShop - has worked well for me in the past. https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop
  - grudg3 3y ago
    It adds a lot to the cost, and I am not protected by the New Zealand consumer laws in case something isn't right with the product. Way too risky for my liking.
    - fennecfoxy 3y ago
      I'm a Kiwi (now in the UK) and you're absolutely right. I always avoided forwarders because: no company warranty, no consumer protection, etc. Forwarders are just grey market. Good for cheap items, but not so much for devices. I miss the Kiwi attitude & the paradise on Earth environment, but I certainly don't miss being left out of the rest of the world, no easy access to products & services and long shipping times besides. Have an L&P for me bra.
Lio 3y ago
What I really appreciate with Framework is that they have little kits that let you repurpose the old insides of your laptop when you upgrade the processor or SSD. That's a nice touch that means you're not just throwing that stuff away.
Llamamoe 3y ago
How does it compare cost-wise to just buying normal used or even new laptops?

fuzztester 3y ago

>For both my Dell and Supermicro workstations, they basically last 10+ years, and I've got a lot of options to keep them going; I wish I could say the same about laptops. I really wish I could get a new 2k screen for the old Dell Latitude E6530 I have -- it's built a lot more robustly than my newer latitude. Agreed. When I was checking out new laptops to buy one, in shops, about a year ago, I was shocked to see the lower quality and sturdiness of the cases and keyboards. For no apparent gain except possible lightness. I think laptop makers have started doing an auto industry in terms of built in or planned obsolescence. Edit: just like mobile phone makers.

gtirloni 3y ago
It's been like this for at least 2 decades now.

oneplane 3y ago

Some of the laptop issues are a chain of dependencies that en up with mechanical and power envelope. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but say you want to go from 720p to 2k, that also requires more power, a bit for the panel and a bit for the backlight. The mainboard might not have a TCON and eDP or LVDS transceiver to drive such a panel, and the GPU might not be able to handle it either. So now that new panel needs three more things: - Power supply - Display transmission - GPU And those things in turn need more (or well, 'different') space, which in turn might not fit in the existing chassis. And if it does, you might still have the thermal envelope issue where the chassis can't support the right airflow in the right places, or the cooling solution might not. None of those are impossible to solve, but they also aren't as simple as "just give me a different panel", because it's not really just about the single component, it almost never is. We have had a lot of luck in the past with a single 'family' of computers (usually largely designed by compal, Foxconn etc.) having interchangeable parts, and the base models essentially being downgraded versions of the top-tier model, which means that as long as you stay within that family, you get to upgrade parts along the way. Framework does an excellent job of keeping everything that still fits within the same envelope going. But if at any point the current eDP interface needs to be replaced to support higher bandwidth, that means that the possible combinations between panels, cables and mainboards is now a whole lot more complicated. Some panels might only work with some mainboards, which might mean you have to replace both at the same time, greatly reducing the usefulness of what remains. Currently we don't have a huge gap between previous generations and current generations, but I'm very curious what's going to happen when we do make another significant jump. Only time will tell.

6510 3y ago
I imagine by that time you've used their market place often enough. Their used parts shop might be more awesome than the laptops. I can only imagine what it will look like in a few decades. Should be awesome. In contrast, I'm the 4th owner of a "free" asus laptop that broke shortly after it was purchased (by the first owner) They never bothered to return it. I have a pretty good idea what is wrong with it but there is about 4 cm of space when I open it. I need some long strong pliers to pull some distant plugs. In a repair video from someone who really knows what they are doing, he reaches deep inside, pulls the plug with great force then smashes the pliers against the pcb making the laptop jump on his desk. "this is normal" he said and proceeded to pull the rest the same way. I've been gathering the courage to do it for about a year now.

shortrounddev2 3y ago

My T420 is still running strong 12 years later. I don't use it for much since I'm not on Linux anymore, but I occasionally open it up and play with it. I'm using a Dell Inspiron now and I'm hoping it lasts a while.

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Yup. I have two working t420s (t420s is thinner than t420 and I think puts it in the realm of "acceptable" in modern standards. T420 I find is mostly a stationary laptop). They run upgraded ssd drives and ram. I also recently stocked up on 3 used t480 as it's the last generation with easily removable battery as well as drive and memory. Those should last me a while! My primary daily driver is the 6 year old t25 - basically t470 but with good keyboard. But I think... That's kinda the point. These laptops were upgradeable but modern ones are not. T490 and onward don't have external replaceable battery. A lot of modern thinkpads have soldered ram. And none of them have the elegance of ultrabay of yore.
- jaredhallen 3y ago
  Most of the newer business class laptops I've seen just have a few screws to pull the back panel and replace the battery. It takes about 5-10 minutes.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Right but that's a) compared to 5 seconds with external battery and b) requires certain comfort and skill level and c) as you point only for specific laptops
    - ornornor 3y ago
      Regarding c), I personally never get anything but business laptops. The consumer ones are just too crappy, plastic everywhere, won’t last more than 3–4 years, underspecced hinges, and plastic clips. The business ones are the same price or cheaper past the three years mark when IT departments all get rid of them at the same time and spare parts are plentiful for the next decade.

prmph 3y ago

I swore off those Chinese manufacturers (Lenovo, Asus, Acer, etc) many years ago for similar reasons and haven't looked back. I just don't buy any products from them, laptops included. Surprised people are still having to learn the hard way that their products are crap.

scq 3y ago
Asus and Acer are Taiwanese, not Chinese, and none of them actually manufacture their own laptops in house, that is outsourced to manufacturing partners. Nearly all laptops on the market, regardless of brand, are manufactured by 6 Taiwanese companies: Quanta, Compal, Wistron, Inventec, Pegatron, and Foxconn. And yes, that includes Framework, who use Compal as their manufacturing partner.
- nukeman 3y ago
  Is there any way to link up which designer works with which contract manufacturer (or at least the models)? And are there any exceptions? I seem to recall Alienware stuff was made in Florida at some point.
  - userbinator 3y ago
    Search for schematics, or look for identifying clues on the motherboard. All the OEMs have more-or-less distinguishable styles and part numbering schemes. E.g. a part number beginning with "LA-" followed by a few digits, then possibly another character, indicates Compal (LA-8331P, LA-4921P, LA-A994P.) Inventec likes to use 6050Annnnnnn (6050A2266501, 6050A2493101.) Quanta uses a few characters/digits code (e.g. ZHY, LX89, ZE6.)
  - solardev 3y ago
    Alienware is just owned by Dell now and seems to put out overpriced poorly built chunky machines that target gamers with too much money. Razer and Falcon NW might be better from the chassis design side, or Sager and Clevo from the OEM value side. The Alienware laptop I had for a week or two a few years ago was the worst laptop I've ever used. Noisy and hot and expensive and poor ergonomics and just all around unimpressive, poor hardware masked by a once respected brand name.