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those are all means to the same end. venv == virtualenv virtualenvwrapper is ancient not rly used anymore pyenv is a third party tool that makes some of this

those are all means to the same end. venv == virtualenv virtualenvwrapper is ancient not rly used anymore pyenv is a third party tool that makes some of this easier, notably around creating more than just a virtual env in that you also choose the Python version. Python is not hard to deal with in this regard I think people are just uninformed.

coldtea 3y ago
Are you kidding me? The horrendous way Python does dependency management and virtual environments, and the fractured ecosystem around those, is one of it biggest pain points, often covered by core CPython developers and prominent Python third party developers, hardly "misinformed" people. https://xkcd.com/1987/ https://xkcd.com/1987/
- whalesalad 3y ago
  That comic is very old. In the days of 2.x it was a little harrier but nothing like people make it out to be. The literal only thing you need to understand is “sys.path”. If you inspect this in a shell you will know what you’re up against. Python is all literally just directories. It’s so easy and yet people get so bent out of shape over it. Create a venv, activate it, and use pip as normal. If you ever run into issues, look at sys.path. That’s it.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >That comic is very old. And few things have changed since then.
    - whalesalad 3y ago
      I’m gonna have to disagree with ya there bud. Never been easier to be a Python developer.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Which is irrelevant. We're talking about the dependencies/packaging/virtual environments situation, not whether "it's easy to be a Python developer" in general. And you can disagree all you want, but it's simply wrong that Python's packaging/venv ecosystem is "just fine".
- beowulfey 3y ago
  There are options to do things other ways, but most of the time I just use venvs and pip for everything. Is it because people have to use venvs that people complain about it? I’ll admit being able to install via an OS package manager, vs pip, vs anaconda etc etc can be confusing, but is any of that really Python (the language)’s fault?
slt2021 3y ago
how about: pip install pip install -u sudo pip install conda install sudo conda install some packages require one, are fine with other with few small warnings, and dont work with third way of installing.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  If you’re installing a Python package into the global site packages directory (ie, into the system Python) you might need sudo. That’s how permissions work. I don’t know the -u flag on pip, never used it can’t find it in the docs. With a virtual environment sudo is not needed. Assuming you created it, and/or it is owned by you. Virtual environments are just directories on disk. They are not complex. I don’t use conda because it’s never felt even remotely necessary to me. pip and a requirements file is all you need.
  - slt2021 3y ago
    -u flag is short for --user ( https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42988977/what-is-the-purpose-of-pip-install-user https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42988977/what-is-the-pur... ) how about when you are authoring script under your name, but then want to schedule it for cron to run periodically? I often find myself working under my user on remote server, but then I want to schedule cron job - and run into all sorts of permissions / bugs and missing packages. especially when multiple machines need to run this script, and I don't want to involve containers to run 20-lines simple python script. this is why Golang is so popular - you can just scp a single binary across machines and it will just work.
    - wombatpm 3y ago
      I’ve started packaging up my clients python scripts as docker images. Works great for cron tasks and updates/rollbacks are a breeze
  - slt2021 3y ago
    I also forget a out: 1. pip install (with/out --user flag ) 2. pip3 install (with/out --user flag ) 3. sudo pip install 4. sudo pip3 install 5. conda install 6. sudo conda install
theLiminator 3y ago
This is Stockholm syndrome
- whalesalad 3y ago
  It’s one of the most popular programming languages in the world for a reason.
  - smabie 3y ago
    And the terrible package management story is not one of those reasons
    - whalesalad 3y ago
      correct, because it’s not terrible.
      - lanstin 3y ago
        I routinely help data scientist people with mangled local python installs. It could be a full time job but a really bad one.

coldtea 3y ago

Are you kidding me? The horrendous way Python does dependency management and virtual environments, and the fractured ecosystem around those, is one of it biggest pain points, often covered by core CPython developers and prominent Python third party developers, hardly "misinformed" people. https://xkcd.com/1987/ https://xkcd.com/1987/

whalesalad 3y ago
That comic is very old. In the days of 2.x it was a little harrier but nothing like people make it out to be. The literal only thing you need to understand is “sys.path”. If you inspect this in a shell you will know what you’re up against. Python is all literally just directories. It’s so easy and yet people get so bent out of shape over it. Create a venv, activate it, and use pip as normal. If you ever run into issues, look at sys.path. That’s it.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >That comic is very old. And few things have changed since then.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    I’m gonna have to disagree with ya there bud. Never been easier to be a Python developer.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Which is irrelevant. We're talking about the dependencies/packaging/virtual environments situation, not whether "it's easy to be a Python developer" in general. And you can disagree all you want, but it's simply wrong that Python's packaging/venv ecosystem is "just fine".
beowulfey 3y ago
There are options to do things other ways, but most of the time I just use venvs and pip for everything. Is it because people have to use venvs that people complain about it? I’ll admit being able to install via an OS package manager, vs pip, vs anaconda etc etc can be confusing, but is any of that really Python (the language)’s fault?

slt2021 3y ago

how about: pip install pip install -u sudo pip install conda install sudo conda install some packages require one, are fine with other with few small warnings, and dont work with third way of installing.

whalesalad 3y ago
If you’re installing a Python package into the global site packages directory (ie, into the system Python) you might need sudo. That’s how permissions work. I don’t know the -u flag on pip, never used it can’t find it in the docs. With a virtual environment sudo is not needed. Assuming you created it, and/or it is owned by you. Virtual environments are just directories on disk. They are not complex. I don’t use conda because it’s never felt even remotely necessary to me. pip and a requirements file is all you need.
- slt2021 3y ago
  -u flag is short for --user ( https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42988977/what-is-the-purpose-of-pip-install-user https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42988977/what-is-the-pur... ) how about when you are authoring script under your name, but then want to schedule it for cron to run periodically? I often find myself working under my user on remote server, but then I want to schedule cron job - and run into all sorts of permissions / bugs and missing packages. especially when multiple machines need to run this script, and I don't want to involve containers to run 20-lines simple python script. this is why Golang is so popular - you can just scp a single binary across machines and it will just work.
  - wombatpm 3y ago
    I’ve started packaging up my clients python scripts as docker images. Works great for cron tasks and updates/rollbacks are a breeze
- slt2021 3y ago
  I also forget a out: 1. pip install (with/out --user flag ) 2. pip3 install (with/out --user flag ) 3. sudo pip install 4. sudo pip3 install 5. conda install 6. sudo conda install

theLiminator 3y ago

This is Stockholm syndrome

whalesalad 3y ago
It’s one of the most popular programming languages in the world for a reason.
- smabie 3y ago
  And the terrible package management story is not one of those reasons
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    correct, because it’s not terrible.
    - lanstin 3y ago
      I routinely help data scientist people with mangled local python installs. It could be a full time job but a really bad one.