6 ms·

> and giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is a death sentence. sounds very plausible, where is the fallacy?

Etheryte 3y ago
Many things sound plausible without having any real connection to reality, we shouldn't rely on trust-me-bro when we're talking about people's lives.
- shuckles 3y ago
  In San Francisco, where I am most familiar, SROs which are used to house homeless junkies are the primary location of overdose deaths, even though they house fewer junkies than the streets surrounding them.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Different populations, you really need to randomly assign people to each group to discover if it’s harmful or a side effect of the selection criteria. I would expect people in SF SROs to OD more for multiple reasons, but I haven’t seen any research on the specifics.
    - shuckles 3y ago
      While it's true that shelter placement has some advantages for high needs folks (e.g. older, women, or disabled), those themselves don't correlate with opioid overdose deaths. There was a randomized trial of permanent supportive housing, which is a stronger intervention than simple housing, in Santa Clara (DOI 10.1111/1475-6773.13553) where those who received PSH died at slightly higher rates than those did not and never found housing of their own.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 3y ago
        Thanks for finding that, looks like it might indeed increase risks. > We enrolled 423 participants (199 intervention; 224 control). Eighty-six percent of those randomized to PSH received housing compared with 36 percent in usual care. > Seventy (37 treatment; 33 control) participants died. That’s a very high risk population. > We found a similar high mortality rate in both treatment and control groups. Individuals experiencing homelessness have a greater age-adjusted mortality rate than housed counterparts.25 Among those who died, 89 percent of those in the intervention group had been housed compared with 28 percent in the control group. I really want to pattern match, but it’s just not enough data. Worse they may have undercounted deaths in the control group. “Abode provided data on death for all participants who died while living in Abode housing. We queried County death certificate data on all participants who did not appear in any source of study data for 6 or more months.”
criley2 3y ago
It's easy to find fallacies if you think about it. For example I could say the opposite > giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is the key that unlocks recovery I've constructed my argument identically and provided the same amount of evidence for my position. When you compare both positions side by side, I think you can easily see that neither is valuable. They are both opinions being presented as facts (begging the question / assumption of truth / unwarranted assumption).
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is the key that unlocks recovery except that when we talk about privacy for addicts, we are actually talking about extreme loneliness. which is the fastest route towards OD. evidence show that adults with mental health issues are more than twice as likely to experience loneliness as those with strong mental health [1] Loneliness can increase the risk of early mortality by 26% [2] editor's note: loneliness alone, imagine loneliness + mental health issues + severe drug addiction. addicts don't need privacy, on the contrary, they need sociality. 4 walls shared with other people could provide that, 4 walls alone won't and will probably make things worse. [1] https://newsroom.thecignagroup.com/loneliness-epidemic-persists-post-pandemic-look https://newsroom.thecignagroup.com/loneliness-epidemic-persi... [2] Holt-Lunstad et al., ‘Loneliness and social isolation as risk factors for mortality: a meta-analytic review’, Perspectives on psychological science 10.2 (2015), pp. 227-237.
  - DropInIn 3y ago
    The 4 walls they get are literally a single room... If you put another person in there outcomes will be even worse. What everyone's missing is the Quality of the housing. If the place is so roach infested and you fight bed bugs others bring in and you constantly lose everything you own to the conditions of the building, then in what mind would that have better outcomes than on the street? The depression that they term loneliness isn't just loneliness, it's a complete sense of defeat and pointlessness resultant directly from environment. Really....
    - 3y ago
DropInIn 3y ago
Alcoholics Most use until they die of "old age" or long term damage from use. Key terms being Old Age and Long Term.

Many things sound plausible without having any real connection to reality, we shouldn't rely on trust-me-bro when we're talking about people's lives.

shuckles 3y ago
In San Francisco, where I am most familiar, SROs which are used to house homeless junkies are the primary location of overdose deaths, even though they house fewer junkies than the streets surrounding them.
- Retric 3y ago
  Different populations, you really need to randomly assign people to each group to discover if it’s harmful or a side effect of the selection criteria. I would expect people in SF SROs to OD more for multiple reasons, but I haven’t seen any research on the specifics.
  - shuckles 3y ago
    While it's true that shelter placement has some advantages for high needs folks (e.g. older, women, or disabled), those themselves don't correlate with opioid overdose deaths. There was a randomized trial of permanent supportive housing, which is a stronger intervention than simple housing, in Santa Clara (DOI 10.1111/1475-6773.13553) where those who received PSH died at slightly higher rates than those did not and never found housing of their own.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 3y ago
      Thanks for finding that, looks like it might indeed increase risks. > We enrolled 423 participants (199 intervention; 224 control). Eighty-six percent of those randomized to PSH received housing compared with 36 percent in usual care. > Seventy (37 treatment; 33 control) participants died. That’s a very high risk population. > We found a similar high mortality rate in both treatment and control groups. Individuals experiencing homelessness have a greater age-adjusted mortality rate than housed counterparts.25 Among those who died, 89 percent of those in the intervention group had been housed compared with 28 percent in the control group. I really want to pattern match, but it’s just not enough data. Worse they may have undercounted deaths in the control group. “Abode provided data on death for all participants who died while living in Abode housing. We queried County death certificate data on all participants who did not appear in any source of study data for 6 or more months.”

criley2 3y ago

It's easy to find fallacies if you think about it. For example I could say the opposite > giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is the key that unlocks recovery I've constructed my argument identically and provided the same amount of evidence for my position. When you compare both positions side by side, I think you can easily see that neither is valuable. They are both opinions being presented as facts (begging the question / assumption of truth / unwarranted assumption).

peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is the key that unlocks recovery except that when we talk about privacy for addicts, we are actually talking about extreme loneliness. which is the fastest route towards OD. evidence show that adults with mental health issues are more than twice as likely to experience loneliness as those with strong mental health [1] Loneliness can increase the risk of early mortality by 26% [2] editor's note: loneliness alone, imagine loneliness + mental health issues + severe drug addiction. addicts don't need privacy, on the contrary, they need sociality. 4 walls shared with other people could provide that, 4 walls alone won't and will probably make things worse. [1] https://newsroom.thecignagroup.com/loneliness-epidemic-persists-post-pandemic-look https://newsroom.thecignagroup.com/loneliness-epidemic-persi... [2] Holt-Lunstad et al., ‘Loneliness and social isolation as risk factors for mortality: a meta-analytic review’, Perspectives on psychological science 10.2 (2015), pp. 227-237.
- DropInIn 3y ago
  The 4 walls they get are literally a single room... If you put another person in there outcomes will be even worse. What everyone's missing is the Quality of the housing. If the place is so roach infested and you fight bed bugs others bring in and you constantly lose everything you own to the conditions of the building, then in what mind would that have better outcomes than on the street? The depression that they term loneliness isn't just loneliness, it's a complete sense of defeat and pointlessness resultant directly from environment. Really....
  - 3y ago

DropInIn 3y ago

Alcoholics Most use until they die of "old age" or long term damage from use. Key terms being Old Age and Long Term.