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"No company will pay you for several years just to learn" No, they never did. But to stay with the hammer metapher - young carpenters would indeed learn on the

"No company will pay you for several years just to learn" No, they never did. But to stay with the hammer metapher - young carpenters would indeed learn on the job, how to use a hammer and all the other tools. But they would not get the same pay (or even no pay and just food and housing). In general it used to be way more common, that companies invested in peoples learning, expecting payoff much later. But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on.

monsieurbanana 3y ago
> But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. You mean you tell them you will teach them, require them to have the skills to begin with anyways, work them like any other employee but with a fraction of the cost promising them full employment at the end, and at the end thank them and tell them to move on? (keeping the first person tone of your post)
- xapata 3y ago
  First person: I, me, us Second person: You That's usually called perspective, not tone.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Yes, something like that. On the other hand young workers usualy greatly overestimate their impact on getting things done and the work required to check their work. (I know I was like that)
  - monsieurbanana 3y ago
    Yeah... That's not wrong. On the other hand, those kind of "fake" internships are rampant here in France, specially with smaller companies or startups. From personal experience they don't bother checking their work. And how could they, the other employees are interns too.
    - BuckRogers 3y ago
      I used to work in France, I was employed by a French company. I do remember the contractors that were French were pretty disgruntled. But I certainly miss being over there. The work culture is so much better than in the US. The pay may be suppressed, but at least everyone gets to enjoy life. Although, at the company I worked at, the pay was not as far off from the US side as the French folks thought it was. Definitely not when you consider how much better they were treated.
    - Claude_Shannon 3y ago
      Same in Poland - none of my friends who did their required internship at studies was ever actually taught anything. It was always just "do your job, don't cause problems". And for free. Of course. My uni literally bans us from being paid. If we do, they won't acknowledge it as internship.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "My uni literally bans us from being paid. If we do, they won't acknowledge it as internship. " Could there be any explanation for such a rule, that is not corruption and exploitation? I cannot think of any.
        Claude_Shannon 3y ago
        I have no idea. It is what is is... :/ Cynically it feels to me like it's just a nice way for the companies nearby to get free labor. My assumption for that is just that it's just supposed to be an internship somewhere where our focus would be to study and thus we shouldn't get any benefits from it, but I've never heard of it working that way. It was always in IT here just being an unpaid junior.
BlargMcLarg 3y ago
>But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. The high mobility part is overblown. The biggest teaching factories are also the ones who spend exorbitant amounts on bureaucracy and accessories while gratuitously taking advantage of young people eager to prove themselves, having little to no responsibilities and no understanding of the professional world. Their whole shtick is to find suckers willing to stick after, all the while taking advantage of naïve youth. The vast majority of people don't move if you keep their pays on actual market rates. Interviewing is a chore. Moving for jobs is a chore. Most people hate getting out of their comfort zone. Yet, many will push individuals to 'prove themselves' first, having any pay raises lag behind for several years, where individuals find themselves getting their promotion's worth of money only after moving to a different company. It's the companies that have optimized for this behavior and chosen internal promotions should be few and unrewarding. Not the other way around. God forbid they reap what they sow.

monsieurbanana 3y ago

> But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. You mean you tell them you will teach them, require them to have the skills to begin with anyways, work them like any other employee but with a fraction of the cost promising them full employment at the end, and at the end thank them and tell them to move on? (keeping the first person tone of your post)

xapata 3y ago
First person: I, me, us Second person: You That's usually called perspective, not tone.
hutzlibu 3y ago
Yes, something like that. On the other hand young workers usualy greatly overestimate their impact on getting things done and the work required to check their work. (I know I was like that)
- monsieurbanana 3y ago
  Yeah... That's not wrong. On the other hand, those kind of "fake" internships are rampant here in France, specially with smaller companies or startups. From personal experience they don't bother checking their work. And how could they, the other employees are interns too.
  - BuckRogers 3y ago
    I used to work in France, I was employed by a French company. I do remember the contractors that were French were pretty disgruntled. But I certainly miss being over there. The work culture is so much better than in the US. The pay may be suppressed, but at least everyone gets to enjoy life. Although, at the company I worked at, the pay was not as far off from the US side as the French folks thought it was. Definitely not when you consider how much better they were treated.
  - Claude_Shannon 3y ago
    Same in Poland - none of my friends who did their required internship at studies was ever actually taught anything. It was always just "do your job, don't cause problems". And for free. Of course. My uni literally bans us from being paid. If we do, they won't acknowledge it as internship.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "My uni literally bans us from being paid. If we do, they won't acknowledge it as internship. " Could there be any explanation for such a rule, that is not corruption and exploitation? I cannot think of any.
      - Claude_Shannon 3y ago
        I have no idea. It is what is is... :/ Cynically it feels to me like it's just a nice way for the companies nearby to get free labor. My assumption for that is just that it's just supposed to be an internship somewhere where our focus would be to study and thus we shouldn't get any benefits from it, but I've never heard of it working that way. It was always in IT here just being an unpaid junior.

BlargMcLarg 3y ago

>But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. The high mobility part is overblown. The biggest teaching factories are also the ones who spend exorbitant amounts on bureaucracy and accessories while gratuitously taking advantage of young people eager to prove themselves, having little to no responsibilities and no understanding of the professional world. Their whole shtick is to find suckers willing to stick after, all the while taking advantage of naïve youth. The vast majority of people don't move if you keep their pays on actual market rates. Interviewing is a chore. Moving for jobs is a chore. Most people hate getting out of their comfort zone. Yet, many will push individuals to 'prove themselves' first, having any pay raises lag behind for several years, where individuals find themselves getting their promotion's worth of money only after moving to a different company. It's the companies that have optimized for this behavior and chosen internal promotions should be few and unrewarding. Not the other way around. God forbid they reap what they sow.