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Well, try lifting a very heavy weight through your back and see what happens.

by vore 3y ago

nimbleplum40 3y ago
How else would you deadlift? Your back is a lever. Also watch strongmen lift atlas stones. It’s all in the back, and a rounded back at that.
- ianbutler 3y ago
  You deadlift through your hips into your back. It's a standing motion. If you're deadlifting heavy weight exclusively through your back rounded or not you will injure yourself.
  - nimbleplum40 3y ago
    There really isn’t good evidence for this. How do you think strongmen lift atlas stones? If a rounded back led to injury then their discs would be shooting out of their backs…
    - ianbutler 3y ago
      I'm not arguing rounded or not. I'm arguing that only lifting from the back will result in injury, you can keep your back straight or rounded. Intuitively, using your back as a lever with heavy weight, without using other elements of your core to support the lift increases the risk for hyperextension and then injury. I'm happy to entertain evidence to the contrary. I will say from my experience deadlifting above 300lbs you would not be doing yourself any favors only lifting from the back. I just watched an atlas stone video and you can clearly see involvement of the whole core, they are not simply levering the stone up.
      - nimbleplum40 3y ago
        I agree that on a deadlift you should use your core. You’ll engage your whole posterior chain. I don’t think the barbell would leave the floor otherwise! But in general, there isn’t a lot of evidence that “bad” form (again, very hard to define that) is correlated to injury risk. There is great evidence that overall load and fatigue management is correlated with injury risk (ex. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27677917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27677917).
        ianbutler 3y ago
        Okay great, for what its worth this is your comment that made me jump in: > How else would you deadlift? Your back is a lever. Also watch strongmen lift atlas stones. It’s all in the back, and a rounded back at that. Can you see how I got to the thought that you might be advocating for not properly engaging the entire posterior chain and in effect attempting to muscle up the weight relying mostly on the back like a stiff leg deadlift? It seemed like a potentially dangerous position to be suggesting and would put a lot more stress on the lower spine for dubious gain imo. I gather from your response though, that you had something more sensible in mind when posting that. To your second point, corelated injury from overall load and fatigue does make sense to me and I think for experienced lifters they are able to make the call on form and what works for their body, I was primarily concerned with the non experienced passerby. I still think you're likely putting more stress on certain parts of your body than you need with certain technique, but that's a personal call.
        nimbleplum40 3y ago
        > I got to the thought that you might be advocating for not properly engaging the entire posterior chain and in effect attempting to muscle up the weight relying mostly on the back like a stiff leg deadlift? I’m not advocating for it, but I also don’t think stiff leg deadlifts are dangerous at all! Again, it’s about fatigue management. If you’ve never done stiff leg deadlifts, then yeah trying to do a maximal effort stiff leg deadlift is probably not smart. But if you’ve never bench pressed then trying to do a maximal effort bench press isn’t smart either, if you’ve never run before then don’t sprint a 5k, etc… > I was primarily concerned with the non experienced passerby. I get where you’re coming from, but the most important thing for someone one doesn’t currently strength train is that they start strength training. Full stop. The benefits massively outweigh the costs. Again, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth because I don’t think you mean this, but if we aren’t careful and give people the impression that they “should go to the gym but must be careful to use perfect form or they’ll get seriously injured” (not supported by the evidence) then most people frankly won’t lift. And not strength training is way more risky.
    - vore 3y ago
      I actually ended up looking into the evidence and you’re actually right: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0966636221000795 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09666... A flexed-back posture is associated with increased strength and efficiency of the back muscles compared to a lordotic posture. These findings further question the manual handling advice to lift with a lordotic lumbar spine. I take it back! It might be okay to lift through your back after all, go nuts!
      - nojs 3y ago
        It’s slightly mechanically advantageous but probably not safer. Unless you’re a powerlifter where the weight actually matters I think the general advice to maintain a neutral back is better.
    - sushid 3y ago
      Watching athletes maximally exert at a competition setting is not the best way to learn to lift. Nearly every athlete will bend their own rules on proper form to eke out a performance boost in competitions.

Well, try lifting a very heavy weight through your back and see what happens.

by vore 3y ago

Well, try lifting a very heavy weight through your back and see what happens.

How else would you deadlift? Your back is a lever. Also watch strongmen lift atlas stones. It’s all in the back, and a rounded back at that.

ianbutler 3y ago
You deadlift through your hips into your back. It's a standing motion. If you're deadlifting heavy weight exclusively through your back rounded or not you will injure yourself.
- nimbleplum40 3y ago
  There really isn’t good evidence for this. How do you think strongmen lift atlas stones? If a rounded back led to injury then their discs would be shooting out of their backs…
  - ianbutler 3y ago
    I'm not arguing rounded or not. I'm arguing that only lifting from the back will result in injury, you can keep your back straight or rounded. Intuitively, using your back as a lever with heavy weight, without using other elements of your core to support the lift increases the risk for hyperextension and then injury. I'm happy to entertain evidence to the contrary. I will say from my experience deadlifting above 300lbs you would not be doing yourself any favors only lifting from the back. I just watched an atlas stone video and you can clearly see involvement of the whole core, they are not simply levering the stone up.
    - nimbleplum40 3y ago
      I agree that on a deadlift you should use your core. You’ll engage your whole posterior chain. I don’t think the barbell would leave the floor otherwise! But in general, there isn’t a lot of evidence that “bad” form (again, very hard to define that) is correlated to injury risk. There is great evidence that overall load and fatigue management is correlated with injury risk (ex. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27677917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27677917).
      - ianbutler 3y ago
        Okay great, for what its worth this is your comment that made me jump in: > How else would you deadlift? Your back is a lever. Also watch strongmen lift atlas stones. It’s all in the back, and a rounded back at that. Can you see how I got to the thought that you might be advocating for not properly engaging the entire posterior chain and in effect attempting to muscle up the weight relying mostly on the back like a stiff leg deadlift? It seemed like a potentially dangerous position to be suggesting and would put a lot more stress on the lower spine for dubious gain imo. I gather from your response though, that you had something more sensible in mind when posting that. To your second point, corelated injury from overall load and fatigue does make sense to me and I think for experienced lifters they are able to make the call on form and what works for their body, I was primarily concerned with the non experienced passerby. I still think you're likely putting more stress on certain parts of your body than you need with certain technique, but that's a personal call.
        nimbleplum40 3y ago
        > I got to the thought that you might be advocating for not properly engaging the entire posterior chain and in effect attempting to muscle up the weight relying mostly on the back like a stiff leg deadlift? I’m not advocating for it, but I also don’t think stiff leg deadlifts are dangerous at all! Again, it’s about fatigue management. If you’ve never done stiff leg deadlifts, then yeah trying to do a maximal effort stiff leg deadlift is probably not smart. But if you’ve never bench pressed then trying to do a maximal effort bench press isn’t smart either, if you’ve never run before then don’t sprint a 5k, etc… > I was primarily concerned with the non experienced passerby. I get where you’re coming from, but the most important thing for someone one doesn’t currently strength train is that they start strength training. Full stop. The benefits massively outweigh the costs. Again, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth because I don’t think you mean this, but if we aren’t careful and give people the impression that they “should go to the gym but must be careful to use perfect form or they’ll get seriously injured” (not supported by the evidence) then most people frankly won’t lift. And not strength training is way more risky.
  - vore 3y ago
    I actually ended up looking into the evidence and you’re actually right: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0966636221000795 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09666... A flexed-back posture is associated with increased strength and efficiency of the back muscles compared to a lordotic posture. These findings further question the manual handling advice to lift with a lordotic lumbar spine. I take it back! It might be okay to lift through your back after all, go nuts!
    - nojs 3y ago
      It’s slightly mechanically advantageous but probably not safer. Unless you’re a powerlifter where the weight actually matters I think the general advice to maintain a neutral back is better.
  - sushid 3y ago
    Watching athletes maximally exert at a competition setting is not the best way to learn to lift. Nearly every athlete will bend their own rules on proper form to eke out a performance boost in competitions.