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This would be a major development should this come to pass. Even if Genera doesn’t get released under a OSS-compliant license, this will be beneficial for hobb

This would be a major development should this come to pass. Even if Genera doesn’t get released under a OSS-compliant license, this will be beneficial for hobbyists and historians (though I don’t know how restrictive non-commercial licenses are for people in academia), similar to the recent release of the Apple Lisa source code (which has similar stipulations). I’ve always wanted to use Symbolics Genera, but I was born around the time of the AI winter of the late 1980s. I wonder if there were any efforts in the 1990s or 2000s to create a FOSS clone of Genera in the vein of either the GNU project, the Linux kernel, and 4.4BSD and its descendants. I heard that Genera is quite complex, but complexity didn’t stop ReactOS and Haiku from chugging along after all these years.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
You'd hope that that these folks could at least do a GPL-style/copyleft license, which would effectively prevent (non-negotiated) commercial use anyways, while still enabling the open source community to enhance and distribute?
- racingmars 3y ago
  The GPL does not prohibit commercial use at all. Often when historical stuff like this is released for "non-commercial use", they're not just talking about not using the code itself in your own non-open-source product, but they mean "you can't run your business on this software." The GPL certainly doesn't stop a commercial entity from downloading and using a GPL-licensed accounting package such a GnuCash to keep track of their company finances.
  - jasonjayr 3y ago
    Having never used a lisp machine, and only having a basic understanding of it -- but if the whole system is a lisp image + apps are just calling into the OS as if they were lisp functions, woulden't a 'pure GPL' be problematic becuase EVERYTHING running in it would have to be GPL? Are there clear linking boundaries in symbolics lisp between apps + the OS ?
    - convolvatron 3y ago
      kinda. not really. but I think this is an important point about the gpl. it hinges on this notion of 'linkage' which is a specific technical implementation which is partially on its way out. but I don't see why it would be a concern here? you're saying to develop a non-gel application on top a gpl-d genera? I guess so.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        GPL3 kinda cleans this up a bit, doesn't it?
      - kazinator 3y ago
        Lisps have linkage via symbols. Loading a shared library on Unix via dlopen() is just a frankenstein version of loading a compiled Lisp file. Linkage is a very abstract concept; it just means name references in this piece here connect with name definitions in that piece over there. The tech may change, but the concept won't easily go away. Function bindings being established or replaced, and used by code in other files, is linkage. If you load a proprietary compiled file (.fasl or whatever) into a GPLed Lisp program/image such that either uses symbols in the other, that is a GPL violation. However, a given Lisp can spell out exceptions to the rule. Like that a proprietary module may be used, provided it only uses certain symbols (in the module -> program direction), and certain registration mechanisms for its code being hooked in (program -> module direction). If it uses GPL symbols then it must be GPLed. Likewise, if the program is hacked to bypass the GPL-free module registration mechanism, so that it calls some proprietary symbols directly, that is also a GPL violation. Same as Linux kernel .ko modules, basically. If you hack the kernel to call some function in a proprietary .ko, then that's a tainting situation. A .ko calling non-GPL functions, likewise. A proprietary .ko's module_init function being called by the kernel is not a GPL violation, and that module_init calling a non-GPL symbol to register something is also okay.
      - gumby 3y ago
        > it hinges on this notion of 'linkage' which is a specific technical implementation which is partially on its way out. The GPL does not care about linkage status. The GNU Library license, which I originally wrote, is for cases such as this, and the lispm code could be licensed that way. I don't understand what you mean by "partially on its way out".
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    I mean I guess I should have explicitly said "derived distribution for commercial projects" but I kinda thought that was obvious since nobody is going to use Genera as is, it would require substantial upgrading to make it useful for the 21st century. Which would be a derived work under GPL and require publication of sources if distributed etc. etc. GPL makes a lot of sense to me for something like this. Nobody is going to make money off Symbolic's old IP, but if they somehow were, clauses in the GPL3 or some variant of a copyleft license would likely force them to contribute back.
- sigstoat 3y ago
  i can take something like Octave (very GPL) and do commercial things with it all day. the GPL would only be relevant if i start distributing Octave itself. (or, in your suggested world, if i started distributing the hypothetically GPL'd genera)
- whartung 3y ago
  I bet there is a valid argument that there’s nothing here of any commercial value anymore. The industry has gone beyond “catching up” to surpassing the values of the Lisp Machine and Genera. Any grand ideas of this era have been considered, and either mined, reimplemented, and exploited or simply rejected as being past their time. The lack of a Lisp machine or environment like Genera is not holding Lisp (much less the entire modern family of Lisp-y languages) back. And modern IDEs are off the charts, even if they don’t check every single box of what Genera has to offer. As an industry, we’ve not just stood on the shoulders of giants of the past like Genera, we’ve stepped off and up and moved ahead. I’ve seen the Genera image that’s floating around, it ran in a VM of some kind. There’s a couple YouTube videos of demonstrations, and maybe I’ve seen the wrong ones, but I’ve just seen them as interesting but not necessarily compelling. It would be wonderful to see a thorough review from a modern perspective. And, yea, they should set the system free. It’s pushing 50 years old, and we’re in “internet” time, so who knows how much that is in “No one knows you’re a dog” years.
  - dietrichepp 3y ago
    Maybe not of commercial value. But I took the time to get SLIME set up, with SBCL, and it seems like a completely different world. I’ve used languages with dynamic loading and REPLs before, and it seems like we still have something to learn from Lisp. Like, the experience is far from ideal—Lisp has its own problems. But it is just so damn nice to redefine a function in a running system, without having to then get the system back into the state that I need. I’ve used IDEs with dynamic code patching, and I’ve used Python systems that reload modules, but there have always been problems with the ergonomics.
    - NavinF 3y ago
      Never understood this sentiment. I was editing functions without restarting the whole program using visual studio >15 years go and the ergonomics were great: I just click the line number next to the function, edit what I need to edit, and click continue to use the new function. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/debugger/edit-and-continue?view=vs-2022 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/debugger/edit...
Paul-Craft 3y ago
> I wonder if there were any efforts in the 1990s or 2000s to create a FOSS clone of Genera in the vein of either the GNU project, the Linux kernel, and 4.4BSD and its descendants. Not that I know of, but here's an install guide for the real deal: https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html
- bilegeek 3y ago
  Also, the predecessor MIT CADR LispM has had an emulator and OS for awhile. https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db
  - mindcrime 3y ago
    See also: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit
  - rjsw 3y ago
    There is also an emulator for the LMI Lisp Machine [1]. [1] https://github.com/dseagrav/ld https://github.com/dseagrav/ld
zokier 3y ago
> I wonder if there were any efforts in the 1990s or 2000s to create a FOSS clone of Genera in the vein of either the GNU project Of course GNU project originally was heavily influenced by LISP machines, its only later that the lispy aspirations largely died off. Example from the original announcement: > In particular, we plan to have [...] Lisp-based window system through which several Lisp programs and ordinary Unix programs can share a screen. Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages As I understand the idea was to build free Lisp Machine clone which would have bits of unix in it.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  While nowadays they are a bit more open to which languages to use on GNU projects, https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Source-Language https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Source-Lan... Back in the day it was mostly about C, hence why C adoption grew again as GNU/Linux gained adoption, when it was already being taken over by C++ in the Apple and Microsoft/IBM ecosystems. > Using a language other than C is like using a non-standard feature: it will cause trouble for users. Even if GCC supports the other language, users may find it inconvenient to have to install the compiler for that other language in order to build your program. So please write in C. -- http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/standards_7.html http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/standards_7.html Lisp was only considered as part of specific applications like Emacs, as you can read on that surviving version from 1994.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    For a while there Guile (Scheme not Lisp, but similar vibe) was being pushed as the preferred glue and extension and scripting language for the GNU ecosystem, but this didn't really go anywhere. Nor did the elisp->euile transition in GNU emacs ever happen.
    - kagevf 3y ago
      > but this didn't really go anywhere. What about guix? It uses guile ...
pjmlp 3y ago
While not Genera, Interlisp-D at Xerox was their approach to Lisp Machines, and is available now. https://interlisp.org/ https://interlisp.org/ https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp... "Xerox PARC:Interlisp D Programmers Tools" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgMZ9gRhq8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgMZ9gRhq8A "The Medley Interlisp Project: Status and Plans" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-b_hazcyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-b_hazcyk
- skissane 3y ago
  What advantages does Genera have over Interlisp-D?

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

You'd hope that that these folks could at least do a GPL-style/copyleft license, which would effectively prevent (non-negotiated) commercial use anyways, while still enabling the open source community to enhance and distribute?

racingmars 3y ago
The GPL does not prohibit commercial use at all. Often when historical stuff like this is released for "non-commercial use", they're not just talking about not using the code itself in your own non-open-source product, but they mean "you can't run your business on this software." The GPL certainly doesn't stop a commercial entity from downloading and using a GPL-licensed accounting package such a GnuCash to keep track of their company finances.
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  Having never used a lisp machine, and only having a basic understanding of it -- but if the whole system is a lisp image + apps are just calling into the OS as if they were lisp functions, woulden't a 'pure GPL' be problematic becuase EVERYTHING running in it would have to be GPL? Are there clear linking boundaries in symbolics lisp between apps + the OS ?
  - convolvatron 3y ago
    kinda. not really. but I think this is an important point about the gpl. it hinges on this notion of 'linkage' which is a specific technical implementation which is partially on its way out. but I don't see why it would be a concern here? you're saying to develop a non-gel application on top a gpl-d genera? I guess so.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      GPL3 kinda cleans this up a bit, doesn't it?
    - kazinator 3y ago
      Lisps have linkage via symbols. Loading a shared library on Unix via dlopen() is just a frankenstein version of loading a compiled Lisp file. Linkage is a very abstract concept; it just means name references in this piece here connect with name definitions in that piece over there. The tech may change, but the concept won't easily go away. Function bindings being established or replaced, and used by code in other files, is linkage. If you load a proprietary compiled file (.fasl or whatever) into a GPLed Lisp program/image such that either uses symbols in the other, that is a GPL violation. However, a given Lisp can spell out exceptions to the rule. Like that a proprietary module may be used, provided it only uses certain symbols (in the module -> program direction), and certain registration mechanisms for its code being hooked in (program -> module direction). If it uses GPL symbols then it must be GPLed. Likewise, if the program is hacked to bypass the GPL-free module registration mechanism, so that it calls some proprietary symbols directly, that is also a GPL violation. Same as Linux kernel .ko modules, basically. If you hack the kernel to call some function in a proprietary .ko, then that's a tainting situation. A .ko calling non-GPL functions, likewise. A proprietary .ko's module_init function being called by the kernel is not a GPL violation, and that module_init calling a non-GPL symbol to register something is also okay.
    - gumby 3y ago
      > it hinges on this notion of 'linkage' which is a specific technical implementation which is partially on its way out. The GPL does not care about linkage status. The GNU Library license, which I originally wrote, is for cases such as this, and the lispm code could be licensed that way. I don't understand what you mean by "partially on its way out".
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  I mean I guess I should have explicitly said "derived distribution for commercial projects" but I kinda thought that was obvious since nobody is going to use Genera as is, it would require substantial upgrading to make it useful for the 21st century. Which would be a derived work under GPL and require publication of sources if distributed etc. etc. GPL makes a lot of sense to me for something like this. Nobody is going to make money off Symbolic's old IP, but if they somehow were, clauses in the GPL3 or some variant of a copyleft license would likely force them to contribute back.
sigstoat 3y ago
i can take something like Octave (very GPL) and do commercial things with it all day. the GPL would only be relevant if i start distributing Octave itself. (or, in your suggested world, if i started distributing the hypothetically GPL'd genera)
whartung 3y ago
I bet there is a valid argument that there’s nothing here of any commercial value anymore. The industry has gone beyond “catching up” to surpassing the values of the Lisp Machine and Genera. Any grand ideas of this era have been considered, and either mined, reimplemented, and exploited or simply rejected as being past their time. The lack of a Lisp machine or environment like Genera is not holding Lisp (much less the entire modern family of Lisp-y languages) back. And modern IDEs are off the charts, even if they don’t check every single box of what Genera has to offer. As an industry, we’ve not just stood on the shoulders of giants of the past like Genera, we’ve stepped off and up and moved ahead. I’ve seen the Genera image that’s floating around, it ran in a VM of some kind. There’s a couple YouTube videos of demonstrations, and maybe I’ve seen the wrong ones, but I’ve just seen them as interesting but not necessarily compelling. It would be wonderful to see a thorough review from a modern perspective. And, yea, they should set the system free. It’s pushing 50 years old, and we’re in “internet” time, so who knows how much that is in “No one knows you’re a dog” years.
- dietrichepp 3y ago
  Maybe not of commercial value. But I took the time to get SLIME set up, with SBCL, and it seems like a completely different world. I’ve used languages with dynamic loading and REPLs before, and it seems like we still have something to learn from Lisp. Like, the experience is far from ideal—Lisp has its own problems. But it is just so damn nice to redefine a function in a running system, without having to then get the system back into the state that I need. I’ve used IDEs with dynamic code patching, and I’ve used Python systems that reload modules, but there have always been problems with the ergonomics.
  - NavinF 3y ago
    Never understood this sentiment. I was editing functions without restarting the whole program using visual studio >15 years go and the ergonomics were great: I just click the line number next to the function, edit what I need to edit, and click continue to use the new function. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/debugger/edit-and-continue?view=vs-2022 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/debugger/edit...

Paul-Craft 3y ago

> I wonder if there were any efforts in the 1990s or 2000s to create a FOSS clone of Genera in the vein of either the GNU project, the Linux kernel, and 4.4BSD and its descendants. Not that I know of, but here's an install guide for the real deal: https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html

bilegeek 3y ago
Also, the predecessor MIT CADR LispM has had an emulator and OS for awhile. https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db https://tumbleweed.nu/r/bug-lispm/forumpost/7475d8a3db
- mindcrime 3y ago
  See also: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Mit
- rjsw 3y ago
  There is also an emulator for the LMI Lisp Machine [1]. [1] https://github.com/dseagrav/ld https://github.com/dseagrav/ld

zokier 3y ago

> I wonder if there were any efforts in the 1990s or 2000s to create a FOSS clone of Genera in the vein of either the GNU project Of course GNU project originally was heavily influenced by LISP machines, its only later that the lispy aspirations largely died off. Example from the original announcement: > In particular, we plan to have [...] Lisp-based window system through which several Lisp programs and ordinary Unix programs can share a screen. Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages As I understand the idea was to build free Lisp Machine clone which would have bits of unix in it.

pjmlp 3y ago
While nowadays they are a bit more open to which languages to use on GNU projects, https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Source-Language https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Source-Lan... Back in the day it was mostly about C, hence why C adoption grew again as GNU/Linux gained adoption, when it was already being taken over by C++ in the Apple and Microsoft/IBM ecosystems. > Using a language other than C is like using a non-standard feature: it will cause trouble for users. Even if GCC supports the other language, users may find it inconvenient to have to install the compiler for that other language in order to build your program. So please write in C. -- http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/standards_7.html http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/standards_7.html Lisp was only considered as part of specific applications like Emacs, as you can read on that surviving version from 1994.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  For a while there Guile (Scheme not Lisp, but similar vibe) was being pushed as the preferred glue and extension and scripting language for the GNU ecosystem, but this didn't really go anywhere. Nor did the elisp->euile transition in GNU emacs ever happen.
  - kagevf 3y ago
    > but this didn't really go anywhere. What about guix? It uses guile ...

pjmlp 3y ago

While not Genera, Interlisp-D at Xerox was their approach to Lisp Machines, and is available now. https://interlisp.org/ https://interlisp.org/ https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp... "Xerox PARC:Interlisp D Programmers Tools" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgMZ9gRhq8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgMZ9gRhq8A "The Medley Interlisp Project: Status and Plans" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-b_hazcyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-b_hazcyk

skissane 3y ago
What advantages does Genera have over Interlisp-D?