3 ms·

Well, Harrison Ford is literally 80 years old. I think Indiana Jones is about 80 in the latest movie as well. Complaining that a gasp woman could beat up an o

Well, Harrison Ford is literally 80 years old. I think Indiana Jones is about 80 in the latest movie as well. Complaining that a *gasp* woman could beat up an octogenarian is more of a commentary about you than the inevitable march of time.

busterarm 3y ago
> Complaining that a gasp woman could beat up an octogenarian is more of a commentary about you than the inevitable march of time. I think it's more about how anyone _would_ beat up an octogenarian, rather than their ability to do so and it being a woman.
- jonathankoren 3y ago
  No. It's specifically the "Mary Sue" part that he's annoyed by. That term is never used online to refer to male character. Of course, a dude that can not only be athletic, can read every inscription in every ancient language, is an expert in every ancient civilization, and use a bull whip as a grappling hook at will gets a pass.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Perhaps only because Gary Stue is used. Male Mary Sues certainly exist.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    No, then they're called a Gary Stu, Marty Stu, Marty Sam or Tom Sue and they exist too. They too are annoying and numerous, but less common. Harry Potter, Scott Pilgrim, James Bond, any character Vin Diesel plays, etc. Mary Sues are called out rightly because they're a shitty trope used by lazy writers. Nobody (with any intelligence or credibility) ever said that George Lucas was a particularly great writer. It's popcorn entertainment for a mass market. Indiana Jones movies came out in a time where movie studios thought audiences were fucking morons and we have much higher standards today after being fed decades of high-concept movies and television. Hence the flat reception and pushback. Even Crystal Skull had its asshole ripped open by audiences without needing misogyny to be a diversion/excuse to explain the turd released by the studio. Movies can't cash in by gender/age/race-swapping classic franchises because if you released those movies as they were today they would ALSO bomb. But Hollywood is certainly trying and trying and scratching its head wondering why it isn't working.
    - jonathankoren 3y ago
      Come back when any of those characters you listed are called Mary Sue. Let’s use Star Wars for an example. A teenager with little education, grows up on a backwater desert planet immediately uses the Force and flies an advanced space craft into battle, becoming the focus of attention of a galaxy spanning fascist military, and a hero in an under resourced underground partisan movement. You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker, but Rey? OMG, the knives were out after the trailer dropped. To deny this dynamic after almost 10 years of it playing out very visibly online and off, at this point is willful ignorance at best.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        > You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker That's just not true. The whole "chosen one" premise is extremely common in fantasy and scifi and widely criticized by people with sufficient taste and media literacy to become aware of the pattern and grow weary of it. Media that fits this pattern is considered adolescent; adults who are obsessed with Star Wars or Harry Potter are called manchildren. "Mary Sue" is gendered language that isn't used to describe male characters, but that doesn't mean this same exact sort of bad writing for male characters doesn't exist, or isn't recognized as such. Off the top of my head: Harry Potter, Star Wars, the Matrix, virtually all shonen anime, The Wheel of Time, anything Branden Sanderson has written... all of these are considered adolescent (have I pissed off everybody yet?) It's extremely hard to think of any example of "chosen one" media that isn't considered adolescent... Dune maybe? This trope is so common, it taints the reputation of all fantasy and sci-fi by association.
        djur 3y ago
        "Mary Sue" doesn't mean "Chosen One", though, right?
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker, but Rey? OMG That's because Luke took a long time to get good, including impulsively running off to fight and losing his arm, and was a whiny so and so, and was only good at certain things. Rey is a classic MS because she's good at everything from the start; she wins every fight, including against the scariest Sith baddie around; flies spaceships perfectly despite having not done it before; fixes the Millennium Falcon in a way that Han Solo, its owner, didn't understand; was an expert boat navigator across a stormy sea that the locals wouldn't sail across, despite having grown up on a desert planet; everyone likes her (e.g. after Han dies Leia, who's met Rey once before, emotionally hugs Rey and not Chewie); she has random helpful encounters out of nowhere; etc etc. I get some characters are unfairly characterised as [MG]ary S(ue|tu), or unfairly not as, but this doesn't seem one of those cases. You might say it's because Disney exec leadership and directing of episodes 7-9 were terrible and fragmented, and you'd be right, but the above still stands.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Nobody should be fighting with 80 year olds. Show them respect (if they lived a decent life) or GTFO.
- emmelaich 3y ago
  Then again I'd be wary of fighting Gene Labell (RIP), Patrick Devellerez or this old guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZsfJabI46c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZsfJabI46c

Well, Harrison Ford is literally 80 years old. I think Indiana Jones is about 80 in the latest movie as well. Complaining that a *gasp* woman could beat up an o

busterarm 3y ago

> Complaining that a gasp woman could beat up an octogenarian is more of a commentary about you than the inevitable march of time. I think it's more about how anyone _would_ beat up an octogenarian, rather than their ability to do so and it being a woman.

jonathankoren 3y ago
No. It's specifically the "Mary Sue" part that he's annoyed by. That term is never used online to refer to male character. Of course, a dude that can not only be athletic, can read every inscription in every ancient language, is an expert in every ancient civilization, and use a bull whip as a grappling hook at will gets a pass.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Perhaps only because Gary Stue is used. Male Mary Sues certainly exist.
- busterarm 3y ago
  No, then they're called a Gary Stu, Marty Stu, Marty Sam or Tom Sue and they exist too. They too are annoying and numerous, but less common. Harry Potter, Scott Pilgrim, James Bond, any character Vin Diesel plays, etc. Mary Sues are called out rightly because they're a shitty trope used by lazy writers. Nobody (with any intelligence or credibility) ever said that George Lucas was a particularly great writer. It's popcorn entertainment for a mass market. Indiana Jones movies came out in a time where movie studios thought audiences were fucking morons and we have much higher standards today after being fed decades of high-concept movies and television. Hence the flat reception and pushback. Even Crystal Skull had its asshole ripped open by audiences without needing misogyny to be a diversion/excuse to explain the turd released by the studio. Movies can't cash in by gender/age/race-swapping classic franchises because if you released those movies as they were today they would ALSO bomb. But Hollywood is certainly trying and trying and scratching its head wondering why it isn't working.
  - jonathankoren 3y ago
    Come back when any of those characters you listed are called Mary Sue. Let’s use Star Wars for an example. A teenager with little education, grows up on a backwater desert planet immediately uses the Force and flies an advanced space craft into battle, becoming the focus of attention of a galaxy spanning fascist military, and a hero in an under resourced underground partisan movement. You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker, but Rey? OMG, the knives were out after the trailer dropped. To deny this dynamic after almost 10 years of it playing out very visibly online and off, at this point is willful ignorance at best.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      > You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker That's just not true. The whole "chosen one" premise is extremely common in fantasy and scifi and widely criticized by people with sufficient taste and media literacy to become aware of the pattern and grow weary of it. Media that fits this pattern is considered adolescent; adults who are obsessed with Star Wars or Harry Potter are called manchildren. "Mary Sue" is gendered language that isn't used to describe male characters, but that doesn't mean this same exact sort of bad writing for male characters doesn't exist, or isn't recognized as such. Off the top of my head: Harry Potter, Star Wars, the Matrix, virtually all shonen anime, The Wheel of Time, anything Branden Sanderson has written... all of these are considered adolescent (have I pissed off everybody yet?) It's extremely hard to think of any example of "chosen one" media that isn't considered adolescent... Dune maybe? This trope is so common, it taints the reputation of all fantasy and sci-fi by association.
      - djur 3y ago
        "Mary Sue" doesn't mean "Chosen One", though, right?
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > You’re hard pressed to find anyone complaining about Luke Skywalker, but Rey? OMG That's because Luke took a long time to get good, including impulsively running off to fight and losing his arm, and was a whiny so and so, and was only good at certain things. Rey is a classic MS because she's good at everything from the start; she wins every fight, including against the scariest Sith baddie around; flies spaceships perfectly despite having not done it before; fixes the Millennium Falcon in a way that Han Solo, its owner, didn't understand; was an expert boat navigator across a stormy sea that the locals wouldn't sail across, despite having grown up on a desert planet; everyone likes her (e.g. after Han dies Leia, who's met Rey once before, emotionally hugs Rey and not Chewie); she has random helpful encounters out of nowhere; etc etc. I get some characters are unfairly characterised as [MG]ary S(ue|tu), or unfairly not as, but this doesn't seem one of those cases. You might say it's because Disney exec leadership and directing of episodes 7-9 were terrible and fragmented, and you'd be right, but the above still stands.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mixmastamyk 3y ago

Nobody should be fighting with 80 year olds. Show them respect (if they lived a decent life) or GTFO.

emmelaich 3y ago
Then again I'd be wary of fighting Gene Labell (RIP), Patrick Devellerez or this old guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZsfJabI46c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZsfJabI46c