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> ...how about basic human empathy? How about empathy from your side? I have lost a friend due to addiction despite "care". The best solution is not being exp

> ...how about basic human empathy? How about empathy from your side? I have lost a friend due to addiction despite "care". The best solution is not being exposed to some classes of drugs at all and fixing other issues that cause this.

EA-3167 3y ago
[flagged]
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  No, what does that have to do with drugs? Sex doesn't mess you up like hard drugs.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    Paul Erdos has a different opinion about amph which is one of hard drugs.
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    Having an unexpected/unwanted child sure can, as can STI's like HIV. My point, which I hoped was clear, is that abstinence (whether from drugs, sex, or anything else) is only a workable model at the societal level in theory. In practice we already know that a statistically significant number of people will engage in risky behavior. Harm reduction in the context of sex involves early education, access to condoms, etc. Harm reduction in the context of drugs involves early education, access to quality rehab and mental health services, safe injection sites, etc.
- dang 3y ago
  Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly in this thread, plus we've had to ask you about this more than once before. We're trying for curious conversation here. Posting aggressively and swipily really kills that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    I apologize, I was getting overly passionate about the topic, I'll rein myself in.
    - dang 3y ago
      Appreciated!
arcticbull 3y ago
> How about empathy from your side? I have lost a friend due to addiction despite "care". The best solution is not being exposed to some classes of drugs at all. Maybe that's true, but the genie isn't going back into the bottle as like 50 years of the 'war on drugs' has so clearly demonstrated. The war on drugs started 18 June 1971 with Richard Nixon's declaration that drug abuse is “public enemy number one.” At this point, drugs seem more available than ever. I strongly suspect we would minimize harm in the reality in which we live (rather than the pretend reality where drugs don't exist) by acknowledging that.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  Think of the War on Drugs like a baked good. Just because we have failed attempting it doesn't mean we go around declaring we'll never try again! It just means we try harder. Joking aside, look at Singapore for a success case.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Well, the whole world did it, and the whole world failed, for fifty years. Just as it failed with alcohol, a much more dangerous drug than most. [0] I'm not sure how Singapore fares, but Japan is also known for its hard-line drug policy. This just pushes the harm underground. Just because you don't see it, and society turns a blind eye to it, doesn't mean it's not there. tl;dr: the hardline policy towards drug use in Japan created a massive underground meth problem. [1] [edit] It doesn't take much research to find out something quite similar is happening in Singapore, too. > “People think drugs are very hard to get in Singapore, but actually before the pandemic they were everywhere, and even now there are people selling them.” [2] Hardline policies don't reduce the harm. They just stop people from asking for help. [0] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-... [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8q7k/how-stigma-created-japans-hidden-drug-problem https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8q7k/how-stigma-created-ja... [2] https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/young-and-loaded-secret-drug-parties-held-in-hotel-rooms https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/young-an...
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
> I have lost a friend due to addiction So have I. The drug was alcohol. Adults make choices and live with the consequences. shrug
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  That is ok, but what is not okay is making rest of society support those consequences. Think of it abstractly like refusing vaccination. You messing up your life has outbound consequences for others (even if no money is spent on you).
scarface_74 3y ago
> The best solution is not being exposed to some classes of drugs at all and fixing other issues that cause this. Yes we should have a “War on Drugs”? What could possibly go wrong?
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  Maybe look at Singapore and other places where it went right?
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And Singapore is mostly homogenous….
    - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
      What? The country has four official languages. It is arguably close to the US level of diversity, especially when you consider the implications of how multiracial children are classified and the fact that 70 something percent of the country is put into a vague “Chinese” bucket.
    - wesapien 3y ago
      If Singapore is homogeneous, the USA is too. Descendants of Chinese (majority), followed by Malay, and Indian make up most of the citizens. Couple that with the high number of expats from all over the world.

EA-3167 3y ago

[flagged]

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
No, what does that have to do with drugs? Sex doesn't mess you up like hard drugs.
- eimrine 3y ago
  Paul Erdos has a different opinion about amph which is one of hard drugs.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  Having an unexpected/unwanted child sure can, as can STI's like HIV. My point, which I hoped was clear, is that abstinence (whether from drugs, sex, or anything else) is only a workable model at the societal level in theory. In practice we already know that a statistically significant number of people will engage in risky behavior. Harm reduction in the context of sex involves early education, access to condoms, etc. Harm reduction in the context of drugs involves early education, access to quality rehab and mental health services, safe injection sites, etc.
dang 3y ago
Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly in this thread, plus we've had to ask you about this more than once before. We're trying for curious conversation here. Posting aggressively and swipily really kills that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- EA-3167 3y ago
  I apologize, I was getting overly passionate about the topic, I'll rein myself in.
  - dang 3y ago
    Appreciated!

arcticbull 3y ago

> How about empathy from your side? I have lost a friend due to addiction despite "care". The best solution is not being exposed to some classes of drugs at all. Maybe that's true, but the genie isn't going back into the bottle as like 50 years of the 'war on drugs' has so clearly demonstrated. The war on drugs started 18 June 1971 with Richard Nixon's declaration that drug abuse is “public enemy number one.” At this point, drugs seem more available than ever. I strongly suspect we would minimize harm in the reality in which we live (rather than the pretend reality where drugs don't exist) by acknowledging that.

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Think of the War on Drugs like a baked good. Just because we have failed attempting it doesn't mean we go around declaring we'll never try again! It just means we try harder. Joking aside, look at Singapore for a success case.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Well, the whole world did it, and the whole world failed, for fifty years. Just as it failed with alcohol, a much more dangerous drug than most. [0] I'm not sure how Singapore fares, but Japan is also known for its hard-line drug policy. This just pushes the harm underground. Just because you don't see it, and society turns a blind eye to it, doesn't mean it's not there. tl;dr: the hardline policy towards drug use in Japan created a massive underground meth problem. [1] [edit] It doesn't take much research to find out something quite similar is happening in Singapore, too. > “People think drugs are very hard to get in Singapore, but actually before the pandemic they were everywhere, and even now there are people selling them.” [2] Hardline policies don't reduce the harm. They just stop people from asking for help. [0] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-the-most-dangerous-drug https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/06/25/what-is-... [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8q7k/how-stigma-created-japans-hidden-drug-problem https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8q7k/how-stigma-created-ja... [2] https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/young-and-loaded-secret-drug-parties-held-in-hotel-rooms https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/young-an...

_a_a_a_ 3y ago

> I have lost a friend due to addiction So have I. The drug was alcohol. Adults make choices and live with the consequences. shrug

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
That is ok, but what is not okay is making rest of society support those consequences. Think of it abstractly like refusing vaccination. You messing up your life has outbound consequences for others (even if no money is spent on you).

scarface_74 3y ago

> The best solution is not being exposed to some classes of drugs at all and fixing other issues that cause this. Yes we should have a “War on Drugs”? What could possibly go wrong?

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Maybe look at Singapore and other places where it went right?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And Singapore is mostly homogenous….
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    What? The country has four official languages. It is arguably close to the US level of diversity, especially when you consider the implications of how multiracial children are classified and the fact that 70 something percent of the country is put into a vague “Chinese” bucket.
  - wesapien 3y ago
    If Singapore is homogeneous, the USA is too. Descendants of Chinese (majority), followed by Malay, and Indian make up most of the citizens. Couple that with the high number of expats from all over the world.