20 ms·

Are there countries that have successfully reduced drug use among their population without implementing strong penalties for possession?

alistairSH 3y ago
Yes. Portugal. When they fully funded their rehab and social service program, the system worked. Then they reduced funding and seem surprised the programs don’t work any more.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Oregon is also trying it.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    Drug usage in Oregon is not going down.
- oneshtein 3y ago
  Quote from the article: > A newly released national survey suggests the percent of adults who have used illicit drugs increased to 12.8 percent in 2022, up from 7.8 in 2001 So, No.
  - calgoo 3y ago
    Portugal has also been having economical issues since the early 2000s which would probably influence the metric.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Even if respondents were unbiased and truthful. That sounds like a useless metric to me. You need a metric of the harm to society. Drug motivated violent crime for example.
    - oneshtein 3y ago
      Quote from the article: > Overdose rates have hit 12-year highs and almost doubled in Lisbon from 2019 to 2023. Sewage samples in Lisbon show cocaine and ketamine detection is now among the highest in Europe, with elevated weekend rates suggesting party-heavy usage. In Porto, the collection of drug-related debris from city streets surged 24 percent between 2021 and 2022, with this year on track to far outpace the last. Crime — including robbery in public spaces — spiked 14 percent from 2021 to 2022, a rise police blame partly on increased drug use. > overdoses this year in Portland, the state’s largest city, have surged 46 percent. > Residents have launched U.S.-style neighborhood watches and hired private security guards — something exceedingly rare in Europe.
      - pedrosorio 3y ago
        What does Portland (Oregon?) have to do with Portugal? > Crime — including robbery in public spaces — spiked 14 percent from 2021 to 2022 I wonder what else changed between 2021 and 2022 that could have caused robbery in public spaces to spike. So many things have changed in Portugal over the last decade, Lisbon and Porto in particular, that looking just at drug policy is insufficient. In particular, cost of living and immigration from poorer countries (both correlated with “number of desperate people”) have risen significantly.
      - estebank 3y ago
        Also from the article > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by the state to nonprofit groups, including the street teams that engage with people who use drugs. You'll notice that 2012 comes before 2019.
        Izkata 3y ago
        That's talking about a spike between 2019 and 2023. Why did it take nearly a decade to happen, then happen all at once? Seems like something else changed more recently than the funding in 2012.
  - BeefWellington 3y ago
    How do they define "illicit drugs" if everything is legal?
    - djaychela 3y ago
      I think they're still illegal, but personal use is permitted. That's what I understand from having been there recently, anyway, but happy to stand corrected on that point if anyone knows more than this.
    - johngladtj 3y ago
      It's never been legalized.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      They decriminalized personal use. They didn’t fully legalize use. Similar to speeding tickets in the US. Speeding is against the law, but minor infractions are not criminal offenses.
  - klabb3 3y ago
    You are right, but the metric of total drug use, or first time use, is only a proxy for the goal of reducing drug-related harm to society and individuals. From what I’ve seen it’s not a great proxy. For instance, Sweden implemented an extremely restrictive drug policy focused on scaring people from trying drugs at all, at the expense of existing users who were shunned and penalized harshly. It now has one of the highest overdose mortality rates in Europe and a well-known gang violence problem that’s unprecedented in its history or in any of the otherwise similar countries. I personally think these “clever” policies where you try to optimize for a proxy metric are just moralistic and unscientific garbage. Not to mention the consequences of giving the task (and the funding) to the criminal justice system first. If we transferred the issues of smoking cessation or alcoholism to the police, what would we expect to happen?
  - debugnik 3y ago
    How did you miss the "then they reduced funding" part? So yes, at first, then not anymore.
  - jabradoodle 3y ago
    It isn't surprising that more people admit to doing something now it isn't illegal.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  Portugal decriminalised personal drug possession in 2001. We should not expect the impact to immediately present. It takes years and often decades for these policies to affect change. How do you know it’s the reduced funding of rehab programs and not the decriminalisation which caused this issue? Especially given the low success rate of rehab programs.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    Interestingly, the opinion of one who reportedly lived there[0] suggests it’s sort of “endemic” in the culture and that government policy (including decriminalization) has had relatively little effect as compared to the decisions made by citizens. Of particular interest to note is the commenter’s perception that this spike is less bad as in the 90s. Not trying to draw any conclusions based on this but it seems just as presumptive to believe that decriminalization has had this negative effect, regardless of how long it takes to “kick in” so to speak. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36643154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36643154
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Well there haven't been many good examples where strong penalties actually worked. The more draconian the penalties the bigger the issues, it seems. The US incarcerates a sizable percentage of its own population at this point and most of that is drugs related. Arguably not working all that well.

alistairSH 3y ago

Yes. Portugal. When they fully funded their rehab and social service program, the system worked. Then they reduced funding and seem surprised the programs don’t work any more.

sacnoradhq 3y ago
Oregon is also trying it.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  Drug usage in Oregon is not going down.
oneshtein 3y ago
Quote from the article: > A newly released national survey suggests the percent of adults who have used illicit drugs increased to 12.8 percent in 2022, up from 7.8 in 2001 So, No.
- calgoo 3y ago
  Portugal has also been having economical issues since the early 2000s which would probably influence the metric.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Even if respondents were unbiased and truthful. That sounds like a useless metric to me. You need a metric of the harm to society. Drug motivated violent crime for example.
  - oneshtein 3y ago
    Quote from the article: > Overdose rates have hit 12-year highs and almost doubled in Lisbon from 2019 to 2023. Sewage samples in Lisbon show cocaine and ketamine detection is now among the highest in Europe, with elevated weekend rates suggesting party-heavy usage. In Porto, the collection of drug-related debris from city streets surged 24 percent between 2021 and 2022, with this year on track to far outpace the last. Crime — including robbery in public spaces — spiked 14 percent from 2021 to 2022, a rise police blame partly on increased drug use. > overdoses this year in Portland, the state’s largest city, have surged 46 percent. > Residents have launched U.S.-style neighborhood watches and hired private security guards — something exceedingly rare in Europe.
    - pedrosorio 3y ago
      What does Portland (Oregon?) have to do with Portugal? > Crime — including robbery in public spaces — spiked 14 percent from 2021 to 2022 I wonder what else changed between 2021 and 2022 that could have caused robbery in public spaces to spike. So many things have changed in Portugal over the last decade, Lisbon and Porto in particular, that looking just at drug policy is insufficient. In particular, cost of living and immigration from poorer countries (both correlated with “number of desperate people”) have risen significantly.
    - estebank 3y ago
      Also from the article > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by the state to nonprofit groups, including the street teams that engage with people who use drugs. You'll notice that 2012 comes before 2019.
      - Izkata 3y ago
        That's talking about a spike between 2019 and 2023. Why did it take nearly a decade to happen, then happen all at once? Seems like something else changed more recently than the funding in 2012.
- BeefWellington 3y ago
  How do they define "illicit drugs" if everything is legal?
  - djaychela 3y ago
    I think they're still illegal, but personal use is permitted. That's what I understand from having been there recently, anyway, but happy to stand corrected on that point if anyone knows more than this.
  - johngladtj 3y ago
    It's never been legalized.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    They decriminalized personal use. They didn’t fully legalize use. Similar to speeding tickets in the US. Speeding is against the law, but minor infractions are not criminal offenses.
- klabb3 3y ago
  You are right, but the metric of total drug use, or first time use, is only a proxy for the goal of reducing drug-related harm to society and individuals. From what I’ve seen it’s not a great proxy. For instance, Sweden implemented an extremely restrictive drug policy focused on scaring people from trying drugs at all, at the expense of existing users who were shunned and penalized harshly. It now has one of the highest overdose mortality rates in Europe and a well-known gang violence problem that’s unprecedented in its history or in any of the otherwise similar countries. I personally think these “clever” policies where you try to optimize for a proxy metric are just moralistic and unscientific garbage. Not to mention the consequences of giving the task (and the funding) to the criminal justice system first. If we transferred the issues of smoking cessation or alcoholism to the police, what would we expect to happen?
- debugnik 3y ago
  How did you miss the "then they reduced funding" part? So yes, at first, then not anymore.
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  It isn't surprising that more people admit to doing something now it isn't illegal.
Gareth321 3y ago
Portugal decriminalised personal drug possession in 2001. We should not expect the impact to immediately present. It takes years and often decades for these policies to affect change. How do you know it’s the reduced funding of rehab programs and not the decriminalisation which caused this issue? Especially given the low success rate of rehab programs.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Interestingly, the opinion of one who reportedly lived there[0] suggests it’s sort of “endemic” in the culture and that government policy (including decriminalization) has had relatively little effect as compared to the decisions made by citizens. Of particular interest to note is the commenter’s perception that this spike is less bad as in the 90s. Not trying to draw any conclusions based on this but it seems just as presumptive to believe that decriminalization has had this negative effect, regardless of how long it takes to “kick in” so to speak. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36643154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36643154

jillesvangurp 3y ago

Well there haven't been many good examples where strong penalties actually worked. The more draconian the penalties the bigger the issues, it seems. The US incarcerates a sizable percentage of its own population at this point and most of that is drugs related. Arguably not working all that well.