3 ms·

> preventive treatments for warfighters who suffer trauma from gunshot or blast wounds, or burns Re the burns, thats why the muscles are catabolised quickly, t

> preventive treatments for warfighters who suffer trauma from gunshot or blast wounds, or burns Re the burns, thats why the muscles are catabolised quickly, the creatine in muscle becomes creatinine which has Gram + & - antibiotic properties. Taurine, is a form of sulfonic acid, and sulfonic acid are precursors to sulfonamides, which were the first anti bacterial drugs, developed by a German scientist, whose work ironically helped save the lives of Winston Churchill and Roosevelts son [1]. Just two examples of many of the chemicals we can find in our diet which can have extremely useful properties for our health. https://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/sulfanilamide2/sulfanilamidejs.htm https://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/sulfanilamide2/sulfanilamide...

rudyfink 3y ago
Huh, I did not know they were related to sulfonamides like that. If you (or someone else) might like a book that goes into the history of sulfonamides, I'd recommend "The Demon Under The Microscope" by Hager (https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Under-Microscope-Battlefield-Hospitals/dp/1400082137/ https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Under-Microscope-Battlefield-Ho...). It was an interesting read.
- Metacelsus 3y ago
  They're not. The structures are quite different.
  - arthur2e5 3y ago
    Ha, yes. The "sulfonamide" name may make it sound like just an OH acid/amine swap, but the buried part is that all such antibiotics have a big benzene ring hanging off the other end. The prototype is instead sulfanilamide. I don't see any merit to this antimicrobial hypothesis, honestly. Muscle catabolism happens whenever protein is needed: what's the microbial threat when a body is starting to starve and disassembles some muscles to get gluconeogenesis going?
Metacelsus 3y ago
This is incorrect. Taurine is structurally quite different from sulfonamide antibiotics and isn't converted into them.
- darkclouds 3y ago
  Best ignore this study then... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24262485/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24262485/ "A case study involving allergic reactions to sulfur-containing compounds including, sulfite, taurine, acesulfame potassium and sulfonamides"
  - arthur2e5 3y ago
    Imagine holding some study that can't even read a structural formula as the holy grail. The big R on any sulfonamide means that there's no "common SO3" as mentioned in the abstract. Disregarding that, just pull up any sulfonamide antibiotic and tell me where you plan to magick the benzene ring from. Or tell me why an also "sulfonamide" diabetes drug is not antibacterial.
    - darkclouds 3y ago
      "Penicillin I and IV have no characteristic u.v. absorption, but penicillin II and III show clearly the fine structure of a benzene ring." https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018/06/chain-lecture.pdf https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018/06/chain-lecture.pdf Not all antibiotics will have a benzene ring, besides benzene is carcinogenic, and some penicillin's will be metabolised into penicillamine which depletes the body of metals including copper, useful for treating Wilsons Disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine#History Low copper leads to lower levels of interleukin 6, which is a particularly useful part of the immune system for targeting some cancers, ergo some antibiotics with their benzene ring and copper chelating properties, increases the risk of cancer... I assume you refer to the Hypoglycaemic Sulfonamides? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9463023/#:~:text=As%20a%20function%20of%20their,circadian%20drop%20in%20insulin%20sensitivity%20 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9463023/#:~:text=As%20a%20fu...( I know antibiotics are a hot topic for a variety of reasons, including the fact that livestock fed antibiotics increase muscle mass, perhaps this is why here in the UK Redbull and other taurine rich energy drinks are banned to under 16yr olds on the pretence the caffeine is the greater enemy, because they dont want stacked as in muscular teenagers running around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... I think this also shows that what constitutes an antibiotic varies enormously, unless the definition of an antibiotic is one that includes the carcinogenic benzene ring? Surprised you haven't mentioned how vitamin K1 disrupts bacterial biofilms, and is particularly useful for tackling pseudomonas, a particularly nasty and stubborn bacteria. Of course its not classed as an antibiotic, its classed as a vitamin, but even the definition of vitamins are being called into doubt when considering pathways that exist in the body, they werent known when the definition of vitamin or "vital amine" were agreed, so maybe the medical profession need to update their terminology in order to not mislead the public en-masse? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-kynurenine-pathway-Tryptophan-is-converted-to-kynurenine-by-either-indoleamine_fig1_264629880 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-kynurenine-pathway-T...

rudyfink 3y ago

Huh, I did not know they were related to sulfonamides like that. If you (or someone else) might like a book that goes into the history of sulfonamides, I'd recommend "The Demon Under The Microscope" by Hager (https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Under-Microscope-Battlefield-Hospitals/dp/1400082137/ https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Under-Microscope-Battlefield-Ho...). It was an interesting read.

Metacelsus 3y ago
They're not. The structures are quite different.
- arthur2e5 3y ago
  Ha, yes. The "sulfonamide" name may make it sound like just an OH acid/amine swap, but the buried part is that all such antibiotics have a big benzene ring hanging off the other end. The prototype is instead sulfanilamide. I don't see any merit to this antimicrobial hypothesis, honestly. Muscle catabolism happens whenever protein is needed: what's the microbial threat when a body is starting to starve and disassembles some muscles to get gluconeogenesis going?

Metacelsus 3y ago

This is incorrect. Taurine is structurally quite different from sulfonamide antibiotics and isn't converted into them.

darkclouds 3y ago
Best ignore this study then... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24262485/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24262485/ "A case study involving allergic reactions to sulfur-containing compounds including, sulfite, taurine, acesulfame potassium and sulfonamides"
- arthur2e5 3y ago
  Imagine holding some study that can't even read a structural formula as the holy grail. The big R on any sulfonamide means that there's no "common SO3" as mentioned in the abstract. Disregarding that, just pull up any sulfonamide antibiotic and tell me where you plan to magick the benzene ring from. Or tell me why an also "sulfonamide" diabetes drug is not antibacterial.
  - darkclouds 3y ago
    "Penicillin I and IV have no characteristic u.v. absorption, but penicillin II and III show clearly the fine structure of a benzene ring." https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018/06/chain-lecture.pdf https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2018/06/chain-lecture.pdf Not all antibiotics will have a benzene ring, besides benzene is carcinogenic, and some penicillin's will be metabolised into penicillamine which depletes the body of metals including copper, useful for treating Wilsons Disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillamine#History Low copper leads to lower levels of interleukin 6, which is a particularly useful part of the immune system for targeting some cancers, ergo some antibiotics with their benzene ring and copper chelating properties, increases the risk of cancer... I assume you refer to the Hypoglycaemic Sulfonamides? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9463023/#:~:text=As%20a%20function%20of%20their,circadian%20drop%20in%20insulin%20sensitivity%20 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9463023/#:~:text=As%20a%20fu...( I know antibiotics are a hot topic for a variety of reasons, including the fact that livestock fed antibiotics increase muscle mass, perhaps this is why here in the UK Redbull and other taurine rich energy drinks are banned to under 16yr olds on the pretence the caffeine is the greater enemy, because they dont want stacked as in muscular teenagers running around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... I think this also shows that what constitutes an antibiotic varies enormously, unless the definition of an antibiotic is one that includes the carcinogenic benzene ring? Surprised you haven't mentioned how vitamin K1 disrupts bacterial biofilms, and is particularly useful for tackling pseudomonas, a particularly nasty and stubborn bacteria. Of course its not classed as an antibiotic, its classed as a vitamin, but even the definition of vitamins are being called into doubt when considering pathways that exist in the body, they werent known when the definition of vitamin or "vital amine" were agreed, so maybe the medical profession need to update their terminology in order to not mislead the public en-masse? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-kynurenine-pathway-Tryptophan-is-converted-to-kynurenine-by-either-indoleamine_fig1_264629880 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-kynurenine-pathway-T...