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> Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedl

> Maybe you go to a school in a poor area, or with a lot of violence, or far too many students for the teachers to pay any individual attention to; or, relatedly, maybe you’re required to spend a lot of time caring for siblings or parents, working a low-skill job, or holding your family together or preserving your safety in some way. The disadvantages of this case are obvious, but there are a few advantages too; the strategy, as with everything, is to mitigate the impact of your disadvantages while using your advantages to the maximum. I don’t know enough to say what the best tactics are for these cases, but I have a few theories. I work in exactly the type of school this describes, with exactly these kids. I’m genuinely awed by the hubris it requires to just plow ahead with advice/theories about their advantages vs. disadvantages despite having no clue whatsoever what they’re talking about. It makes me genuinely angry. This person can take their theories and shove them up their ass, until they bother spending time in my shoes and really coming face-to-face with the profound systemic and otherwise deep long-term issues kids in this environment have to confront… just to make it to tomorrow. While navigating being a fucking teenager.

costanzaDynasty 3y ago
My life only got better after I quit school at 15. At the end, I had so much outside distraction, that I couldn't put up the front at school anymore. I just needed sometime free from chaos.
- solarmist 3y ago
  Quitting school wouldn’t have helped me. It would’ve locked my into that life for myself. The chaos I had was mostly at home. School was my calm place.
  - dmvdoug 3y ago
    This is something I hear startlingly often. It's not the majority of kids, by any means, but I've had a number of students who fail classes so they have to go to summer school, just to escape from home.
    - solarmist 3y ago
      It wasn’t that intense for me or even a conscious choice. For me it was neglect and a chaotic environment. (Think growing up as a “roommate” of a depressed nonfunctional alcoholic) Similarly, I had enough positive attention that I wanted to continue and make it to college. Edit: bad-> intense. I need to stop minimizing what I went through.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
pessimizer 3y ago
[flagged]
zls 3y ago
I went to a school like this for most of my youth and I’m with you. The only real strategy is to be lucky, whether it’s by having good parents or by incidentally avoiding the abundant pitfalls. Edit: resisting peer pressure shouldn’t be worried about because it’s “the spice of life”? Yikes
- srcthr 3y ago
  [flagged]
gloryjulio 3y ago
I agree. There are no good solutions. Only how lucky the children are on whether having good parents
balaji1 3y ago
99% of the time it is not hubris, just the author missing some viewpoint/info/awareness. The author seems to have put in a lot of thought. And would be open to putting in more thought if you illustrated where he is incorrect or missing info. Otherwise the content is appealing to a lot of people.
- somsak2 3y ago
  i think parent prefers to simply be angry than contribute to the conversation
  - solarmist 3y ago
    The parents in these situation often don’t have the emotional or social skills to do more or even realize that there are options other than be angry. The parents are dysfunctional people churning out the next generation of dysfunctional people. It’s an intergenerational cycle that is nearly impossible to break.
    - solarmist 3y ago
      I’m not blaming these people, but if you grow up in a dysfunctional functional environment it is on the level of a miracle to break the cycle. You don’t know what’s wrong or where to look for help and in my case I was even proud of my parentification for making me “strong and resilient” while minimizing the bad things as a coping mechanism.
  - moravak1984 3y ago
    When the author writes: > I don’t know enough to say what the best tactics are for these cases, but I have a few theories. doesn't that somewhat justify the anger of the parent comment (who presumably "knows enough")? If the author doesn't know enough about the topic, why the need to pontify? They could just stfu and have an opinion in topics on which they do have meaningful contributions. Not everyone needs to have an opinion on everything.
  - balaji1 3y ago
somsak2 3y ago
whenever you see the word "systemic," you can be sure that what follows is going to be painting in broad strokes at a population level and not something that is actually relevant to decisions an individual can make.
- xg15 3y ago
  I mean, the very point of the GP was that a lot of factors cannot be influenced by individual decisions - because they are systemic.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  To be fair, the person that the parent is responding to is also giving extremely broad strokes. On its face listing out a set of really big barriers followed by “but they have advantages too!” can easily be seen to me like the “have you tried yoga” of being disadvantaged. Like I can imagine a whole set of specific examples where “there are also advantages” would be incredibly offensive to say so handwavily. If someone tried to tell a teenager their experience with being sexually abused as a prepubescent child “has advantages” I would promptly try to remove that person from being near that or any other child for example.
ineedasername 3y ago
Yeah, working a full-time job throughout high school didn't exactly maximize my potential. I had minimal time for much else, and it didn't exactly foster the best habits when I crammed 1st period homework into homeroom, hoped the 1st period teacher didn't call me out for doing second period homework in 1st period, and continuing that practice throughout the day trying to "just in time" my learning, as the article suggests. It wasn't all as bad as that, not all of the time, but that characterizes much of it. You know where & how I "escaped"? With dumb luck and public University scholarships & federal grants. The dumb luck was some quirk of genetics that put enough horsepower in my brain that I could get away with awful learning habits. So I learned fast enough that grades & test scores needed for scholarships & grants allowed me to significantly cut back on the low-skill job hours. Then during college I learned enough that I got a semi-skilled job during the end of my college years, and went on from there. I've done the research on populations of kids that come from these backgrounds vs. others, and success rates are shitty. Sure, when I dig into the qualitative side I usually see a bit of determination on the part of those who were successful but there's always a lot of dumb luck too. This genre of pontificating that amounts to "Anyone can do it if they just try hard enough!" completely ignores the fact that the ability to try is itself highly influenced by outside factors beyond an individual or family's control. Problems of this sort can't be solved merely by attempts to motivate the individuals, they have to be accompanied by environmental changes and interventions.
breckinloggins 3y ago
> really coming face-to-face with the profound systemic and otherwise deep long-term issues kids in this environment have to confront Are there any good books on this topic that you would recommend? I don't expect you to write a point-by-point rebuttal to every blog post like this that comes along, but I'd sure love to do some of that work myself and well-regarded popular books on the subject are a good place to start. The Amazon results from a search on "books about systemic issues in inner city public schools" are all over the place. Bonus points if you have a more left-leaning recommendation, because I'm already familiar with the arguments from Lukianoff, Haidt, Sowell, et al and would like to read a good counter to them.
- solarmist 3y ago
  The systemic issues start at home. Not having safety or stability in their home life leads to almost all of the negative adults outcomes you hear about. Cptsd, parentification, and physical/emotional/social neglect (abuse too, but it’s more obvious than neglect) are the biggest things to solve based on my lived experiences. Solving those would solve most of the “school” issues I believe. The next level would be at the “nickeled and dimed” [0] level. Poor opportunities and little mobility is all most of these kids can look forward to. So instead they spend their downtime distracting themselves from how shitty their lives are or will be. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed
- growingkittens 3y ago
  "From Systems Thinking to Systemic Action: 48 Key Questions to Guide the Journey" by Lee Jenkins.
pandorable 3y ago
Hi, author of the post here. See my comment in response to light_hue_1 farther down – in the spirit of Cunningham's Law, I'd be curious about your answers to the same questions. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36630576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36630576 Would also be interested to hear from anyone else who's taught at or attended a high school that's poor or in a rough area, re: those questions.
- solarmist 3y ago
  > Copied from below. I’m one of the kids that “made it” out of these situations and it took me until I was over 40 and making FAANG money to START thinking in terms other than “not being like my dad” or “ending up poor”. My longterm plan was “to be an electrician or work with computers.” Which was the plan I formed in 1st grade. (It took until high school to realize I meant EE not electrician, but that’s how little the actual plan mattered.) > preserving your safety in some way Even a comment as small as this is assuming a lot in poor areas. The only safety I had was in my own head or in my STEM classes because I could immerse myself in them enough to forget about life outside them. Look up the problems associated with complex-ptsd, childhood neglect and parentification. It was all about racing as hard as possible away from where I was, not about looking forward in any way. For most of my twenties my timeframe in planning was weeks or months if I felt confident. I just got lucky I got hooked on computers and had a couple teachers that praised me for that and math. In fact, I nearly dropped out in 9th grade to work at a Burger King so I had access to some kind of money. Instead I called CPS and moved in with my narcissistic mother who was at least financially stable. But it was a coin toss at the time. My first job was in a factory and then in the Army, I didn’t have a plan or wants other than stable living situation and enough money for basic bills.

costanzaDynasty 3y ago

My life only got better after I quit school at 15. At the end, I had so much outside distraction, that I couldn't put up the front at school anymore. I just needed sometime free from chaos.

solarmist 3y ago
Quitting school wouldn’t have helped me. It would’ve locked my into that life for myself. The chaos I had was mostly at home. School was my calm place.
- dmvdoug 3y ago
  This is something I hear startlingly often. It's not the majority of kids, by any means, but I've had a number of students who fail classes so they have to go to summer school, just to escape from home.
  - solarmist 3y ago
    It wasn’t that intense for me or even a conscious choice. For me it was neglect and a chaotic environment. (Think growing up as a “roommate” of a depressed nonfunctional alcoholic) Similarly, I had enough positive attention that I wanted to continue and make it to college. Edit: bad-> intense. I need to stop minimizing what I went through.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

pessimizer 3y ago

[flagged]

zls 3y ago

I went to a school like this for most of my youth and I’m with you. The only real strategy is to be lucky, whether it’s by having good parents or by incidentally avoiding the abundant pitfalls. Edit: resisting peer pressure shouldn’t be worried about because it’s “the spice of life”? Yikes

srcthr 3y ago
[flagged]

gloryjulio 3y ago

I agree. There are no good solutions. Only how lucky the children are on whether having good parents

balaji1 3y ago

99% of the time it is not hubris, just the author missing some viewpoint/info/awareness. The author seems to have put in a lot of thought. And would be open to putting in more thought if you illustrated where he is incorrect or missing info. Otherwise the content is appealing to a lot of people.

somsak2 3y ago
i think parent prefers to simply be angry than contribute to the conversation
- solarmist 3y ago
  The parents in these situation often don’t have the emotional or social skills to do more or even realize that there are options other than be angry. The parents are dysfunctional people churning out the next generation of dysfunctional people. It’s an intergenerational cycle that is nearly impossible to break.
  - solarmist 3y ago
    I’m not blaming these people, but if you grow up in a dysfunctional functional environment it is on the level of a miracle to break the cycle. You don’t know what’s wrong or where to look for help and in my case I was even proud of my parentification for making me “strong and resilient” while minimizing the bad things as a coping mechanism.
- moravak1984 3y ago
  When the author writes: > I don’t know enough to say what the best tactics are for these cases, but I have a few theories. doesn't that somewhat justify the anger of the parent comment (who presumably "knows enough")? If the author doesn't know enough about the topic, why the need to pontify? They could just stfu and have an opinion in topics on which they do have meaningful contributions. Not everyone needs to have an opinion on everything.
- balaji1 3y ago

somsak2 3y ago

whenever you see the word "systemic," you can be sure that what follows is going to be painting in broad strokes at a population level and not something that is actually relevant to decisions an individual can make.

xg15 3y ago
I mean, the very point of the GP was that a lot of factors cannot be influenced by individual decisions - because they are systemic.
SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
To be fair, the person that the parent is responding to is also giving extremely broad strokes. On its face listing out a set of really big barriers followed by “but they have advantages too!” can easily be seen to me like the “have you tried yoga” of being disadvantaged. Like I can imagine a whole set of specific examples where “there are also advantages” would be incredibly offensive to say so handwavily. If someone tried to tell a teenager their experience with being sexually abused as a prepubescent child “has advantages” I would promptly try to remove that person from being near that or any other child for example.

ineedasername 3y ago

Yeah, working a full-time job throughout high school didn't exactly maximize my potential. I had minimal time for much else, and it didn't exactly foster the best habits when I crammed 1st period homework into homeroom, hoped the 1st period teacher didn't call me out for doing second period homework in 1st period, and continuing that practice throughout the day trying to "just in time" my learning, as the article suggests. It wasn't all as bad as that, not all of the time, but that characterizes much of it. You know where & how I "escaped"? With dumb luck and public University scholarships & federal grants. The dumb luck was some quirk of genetics that put enough horsepower in my brain that I could get away with awful learning habits. So I learned fast enough that grades & test scores needed for scholarships & grants allowed me to significantly cut back on the low-skill job hours. Then during college I learned enough that I got a semi-skilled job during the end of my college years, and went on from there. I've done the research on populations of kids that come from these backgrounds vs. others, and success rates are shitty. Sure, when I dig into the qualitative side I usually see a bit of determination on the part of those who were successful but there's always a lot of dumb luck too. This genre of pontificating that amounts to "Anyone can do it if they just try hard enough!" completely ignores the fact that the ability to try is itself highly influenced by outside factors beyond an individual or family's control. Problems of this sort can't be solved merely by attempts to motivate the individuals, they have to be accompanied by environmental changes and interventions.

breckinloggins 3y ago

> really coming face-to-face with the profound systemic and otherwise deep long-term issues kids in this environment have to confront Are there any good books on this topic that you would recommend? I don't expect you to write a point-by-point rebuttal to every blog post like this that comes along, but I'd sure love to do some of that work myself and well-regarded popular books on the subject are a good place to start. The Amazon results from a search on "books about systemic issues in inner city public schools" are all over the place. Bonus points if you have a more left-leaning recommendation, because I'm already familiar with the arguments from Lukianoff, Haidt, Sowell, et al and would like to read a good counter to them.

solarmist 3y ago
The systemic issues start at home. Not having safety or stability in their home life leads to almost all of the negative adults outcomes you hear about. Cptsd, parentification, and physical/emotional/social neglect (abuse too, but it’s more obvious than neglect) are the biggest things to solve based on my lived experiences. Solving those would solve most of the “school” issues I believe. The next level would be at the “nickeled and dimed” [0] level. Poor opportunities and little mobility is all most of these kids can look forward to. So instead they spend their downtime distracting themselves from how shitty their lives are or will be. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed
growingkittens 3y ago
"From Systems Thinking to Systemic Action: 48 Key Questions to Guide the Journey" by Lee Jenkins.

pandorable 3y ago

Hi, author of the post here. See my comment in response to light_hue_1 farther down – in the spirit of Cunningham's Law, I'd be curious about your answers to the same questions. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36630576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36630576 Would also be interested to hear from anyone else who's taught at or attended a high school that's poor or in a rough area, re: those questions.

solarmist 3y ago
> Copied from below. I’m one of the kids that “made it” out of these situations and it took me until I was over 40 and making FAANG money to START thinking in terms other than “not being like my dad” or “ending up poor”. My longterm plan was “to be an electrician or work with computers.” Which was the plan I formed in 1st grade. (It took until high school to realize I meant EE not electrician, but that’s how little the actual plan mattered.) > preserving your safety in some way Even a comment as small as this is assuming a lot in poor areas. The only safety I had was in my own head or in my STEM classes because I could immerse myself in them enough to forget about life outside them. Look up the problems associated with complex-ptsd, childhood neglect and parentification. It was all about racing as hard as possible away from where I was, not about looking forward in any way. For most of my twenties my timeframe in planning was weeks or months if I felt confident. I just got lucky I got hooked on computers and had a couple teachers that praised me for that and math. In fact, I nearly dropped out in 9th grade to work at a Burger King so I had access to some kind of money. Instead I called CPS and moved in with my narcissistic mother who was at least financially stable. But it was a coin toss at the time. My first job was in a factory and then in the Army, I didn’t have a plan or wants other than stable living situation and enough money for basic bills.