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I'm a bit more bullish on it. It makes some sense in dense areas, I think. Which almost certainly accounts for the majority of areas that are covered by deliv

by taeric 3y ago

I'm a bit more bullish on it. It makes some sense in dense areas, I think. Which almost certainly accounts for the majority of areas that are covered by delivery. However, the range is not to be discounted. Assuming a delivery van will operate for basically the full working day, I'd assume 200 miles is not unheard of for driving, and I see the range is about 150 miles for them. That said, https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for-amazon-in-new-rivian-electric-vans.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for... seems to indicate that the range is working out ok? I'm curious if that is strictly in the dense areas? Mayhap the lower density also translates to fewer deliveries such that you have a lower "duty cycle" as it were?

jackmott42 3y ago
could potentially supercharge them over lunch breaks if needed. fleets could also battery swap with less complication than normal end user cars. they also have to be WAY easier to drive. they just scoot out of there rather than having to shift 9 times to get up to speed.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Not just lunch breaks. They have to return to the warehouse to reload every couple hours.
- nomel 3y ago
  > they also have to be WAY easier to drive. they just scoot out of there rather than having to shift 9 times to get up to speed. All Amazon delivery vans are automatic.
throwaway5752 3y ago
Agreed, they'd outperform in stop and go driving. Delivery in urban areas is their sweet spot. Since the workload is largely over the work day, supercharging needs are probably limited and vans can be just overnight on level 2 chargers.
jiveturkey42 3y ago
Also considering that it's policy UPS (maybe others?) to turn off the engine at every stop, and starting a vehicle is fuel intensive in an ICE vehicle
- brk 3y ago
  I don't think that is correct, many vehicles now have the auto start/stop as a way of meeting emissions requirements.
- LgWoodenBadger 3y ago
  If it's so intensive, why is auto-stop/start such a common feature on many vehicles? Especially since it seems to improve city-cycle mpg ratings...
  - ekleraki 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - housemusicfan 3y ago
      This is false.
      - ekleraki 3y ago
        Can you find a link that shows that ICE / non hybrid and non ev make up the majority of cars with automatic start and stop?
    - flangola7 3y ago
      There's many 100% ICE vehicles that shutdown at stops.
      - ekleraki 3y ago
        Mostly means the majority and by construction allows for exceptions.
notatoad 3y ago
> since usage is predictable I think this is the important bit. Amazon knows on exactly which routes a full battery and a full load of packages line up, so they can put the EVs on those routes.
- kotaKat 3y ago
  Another thing I was just thinking of this morning was that you could implement possible charging into a route of packages -- pushing an automatic break in for a driver to stop for 10-15 minutes and grab a DC fast charge somewhere. It'd almost be a win-win: the driver gets a predictable break on the route (and knows they get a break!) and you can keep the vehicle on route longer. On top of that, while plugged in, they can keep cool/warm in the vehicle without having to idle it or have additional wear and tear...
  - taeric 3y ago
    It ultimately doesn't pan out that well. Will work right up til someone finds that they can get a % more delivered without doing the stops. You can see this in long race formats that have breaks. Teams that find a way to not do the break wind up winning. Such that you then have to mandate them, which works for things that people don't get value out of. We already have similar mandates for truck driving, and I think most folks would be surprised that that exists. And they are far looser than what would be required for last mile driving.
    - yebyen 3y ago
      > Teams that find a way to not do the break wind up winning Teams that don't take the break will be inhibited by the limited range of their un-recharged vehicles. Are you suggesting that some people will find out how to swap their vehicles, and keep the shift going? (Or add an extra length of hose to the fuel line, for a virtually bigger tank? That type of trick isn't going to work well with battery vehicles...) How is it you propose that someone is going to get more work done in less time, when their total range / route length is reduced by the extra effective distance they would have been able to continue with 15 minutes of fast charging added in, at the one or two points where it makes sense to add a stop in their shifts?
pjungwir 3y ago
Bearish?
- taeric 3y ago
  Ha, yeah, I used the wrong term. :( Apologies on the confusion. My main point is still on the "contra to my view" side, though. I'm skeptical that they are as good of an idea as stated, but evidence is positive on them.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    You ride a bull, you run from a bear.
    - taeric 3y ago
      Nice! I actually knew the correct term, though. Have a bad habit of switching binary things a lot. :( Edit: Amusingly, I think I was thinking that I was bullish against it. Such that I flipped a different part of the sentence. Still, wrong as written.
    - tbeseda 3y ago
      Or: bears hibernate, bulls charge
    - jaipilot747 3y ago
      It's confusing, because people generally don't ride bulls. Where I'm from you gently back off from both bulls and bears.
      - taeric 3y ago
        I remember it as bears hibernate, so they will stockpile resources and not let go of them. I don't really have an analog for the bulls, oddly.
    - LeafItAlone 3y ago
      I was taught it was how they attack. Bears: stand and swipe down with their paw Bulls: start with their head low and jut upwards with their horns
gambiting 3y ago
DPD does all their deliveries in my area(medium size city in the UK) with Nissan NV100 electric vans and they get 100 miles of range on a good day(more like 60-80). The biggest chunk of that is warehouse to the city, then in-city driving makes very little impact on battery range since you're starting and stopping constantly(which is actually directly opposite to the efficiency of ICE cars)
- taeric 3y ago
  I'm curious if they have to have more vans than they would otherwise need, then? That could easily let you cover the day with lower range. I'm also open to challenges in my thoughts on typical range needed for a city fleet in deliveries. Will try and take a dive to find more data there.
  - Doxin 3y ago
    I feel like loading whilst charging would minimize the impact charging makes quite significantly. Fast charging takes what, 20 minutes? I'm not sure loading a van is much faster.
    - gambiting 3y ago
      Truck operators already do that - Volvo was saying that in the trials for their fully electric truck, charging while the truck is being loaded at the depot is fast enough for all day of operating. Of course that's not long distance driving, but plenty of customers for this kind of thing already.

by taeric 3y ago

jackmott42 3y ago

could potentially supercharge them over lunch breaks if needed. fleets could also battery swap with less complication than normal end user cars. they also have to be WAY easier to drive. they just scoot out of there rather than having to shift 9 times to get up to speed.

bluGill 3y ago
Not just lunch breaks. They have to return to the warehouse to reload every couple hours.
nomel 3y ago
> they also have to be WAY easier to drive. they just scoot out of there rather than having to shift 9 times to get up to speed. All Amazon delivery vans are automatic.

throwaway5752 3y ago

Agreed, they'd outperform in stop and go driving. Delivery in urban areas is their sweet spot. Since the workload is largely over the work day, supercharging needs are probably limited and vans can be just overnight on level 2 chargers.

jiveturkey42 3y ago

Also considering that it's policy UPS (maybe others?) to turn off the engine at every stop, and starting a vehicle is fuel intensive in an ICE vehicle

brk 3y ago
I don't think that is correct, many vehicles now have the auto start/stop as a way of meeting emissions requirements.
LgWoodenBadger 3y ago
If it's so intensive, why is auto-stop/start such a common feature on many vehicles? Especially since it seems to improve city-cycle mpg ratings...
- ekleraki 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - housemusicfan 3y ago
    This is false.
    - ekleraki 3y ago
      Can you find a link that shows that ICE / non hybrid and non ev make up the majority of cars with automatic start and stop?
  - flangola7 3y ago
    There's many 100% ICE vehicles that shutdown at stops.
    - ekleraki 3y ago
      Mostly means the majority and by construction allows for exceptions.

notatoad 3y ago

> since usage is predictable I think this is the important bit. Amazon knows on exactly which routes a full battery and a full load of packages line up, so they can put the EVs on those routes.

kotaKat 3y ago
Another thing I was just thinking of this morning was that you could implement possible charging into a route of packages -- pushing an automatic break in for a driver to stop for 10-15 minutes and grab a DC fast charge somewhere. It'd almost be a win-win: the driver gets a predictable break on the route (and knows they get a break!) and you can keep the vehicle on route longer. On top of that, while plugged in, they can keep cool/warm in the vehicle without having to idle it or have additional wear and tear...
- taeric 3y ago
  It ultimately doesn't pan out that well. Will work right up til someone finds that they can get a % more delivered without doing the stops. You can see this in long race formats that have breaks. Teams that find a way to not do the break wind up winning. Such that you then have to mandate them, which works for things that people don't get value out of. We already have similar mandates for truck driving, and I think most folks would be surprised that that exists. And they are far looser than what would be required for last mile driving.
  - yebyen 3y ago
    > Teams that find a way to not do the break wind up winning Teams that don't take the break will be inhibited by the limited range of their un-recharged vehicles. Are you suggesting that some people will find out how to swap their vehicles, and keep the shift going? (Or add an extra length of hose to the fuel line, for a virtually bigger tank? That type of trick isn't going to work well with battery vehicles...) How is it you propose that someone is going to get more work done in less time, when their total range / route length is reduced by the extra effective distance they would have been able to continue with 15 minutes of fast charging added in, at the one or two points where it makes sense to add a stop in their shifts?

pjungwir 3y ago

Bearish?

taeric 3y ago
Ha, yeah, I used the wrong term. :( Apologies on the confusion. My main point is still on the "contra to my view" side, though. I'm skeptical that they are as good of an idea as stated, but evidence is positive on them.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  You ride a bull, you run from a bear.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Nice! I actually knew the correct term, though. Have a bad habit of switching binary things a lot. :( Edit: Amusingly, I think I was thinking that I was bullish against it. Such that I flipped a different part of the sentence. Still, wrong as written.
  - tbeseda 3y ago
    Or: bears hibernate, bulls charge
  - jaipilot747 3y ago
    It's confusing, because people generally don't ride bulls. Where I'm from you gently back off from both bulls and bears.
    - taeric 3y ago
      I remember it as bears hibernate, so they will stockpile resources and not let go of them. I don't really have an analog for the bulls, oddly.
  - LeafItAlone 3y ago
    I was taught it was how they attack. Bears: stand and swipe down with their paw Bulls: start with their head low and jut upwards with their horns

gambiting 3y ago

DPD does all their deliveries in my area(medium size city in the UK) with Nissan NV100 electric vans and they get 100 miles of range on a good day(more like 60-80). The biggest chunk of that is warehouse to the city, then in-city driving makes very little impact on battery range since you're starting and stopping constantly(which is actually directly opposite to the efficiency of ICE cars)

taeric 3y ago
I'm curious if they have to have more vans than they would otherwise need, then? That could easily let you cover the day with lower range. I'm also open to challenges in my thoughts on typical range needed for a city fleet in deliveries. Will try and take a dive to find more data there.
- Doxin 3y ago
  I feel like loading whilst charging would minimize the impact charging makes quite significantly. Fast charging takes what, 20 minutes? I'm not sure loading a van is much faster.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    Truck operators already do that - Volvo was saying that in the trials for their fully electric truck, charging while the truck is being loaded at the depot is fast enough for all day of operating. Of course that's not long distance driving, but plenty of customers for this kind of thing already.