4 ms·

Question is, how did the US slide down below Russia and Romania? That's not a good sign.

by mc32 3y ago

bogtog 3y ago
Romania is very different from Russia
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
What sort of question is that? Why do you assume that Russia and Romania should rank low in civic honesty?
- mc32 3y ago
  In Eastern countries, officially things were "cooperative" centric, in reality, breadlines and such meant you looked out for number one.
  - myth_drannon 3y ago
    That's extreme generalization and is not based on reality. I will assume the author never been to Eastern bloc. Breadlines are a thing of just end of 80's. So 5 years max of entire history of the region? I find the culture was less individualistic. Now of course it shifted but still core values remain. And each part of the bloc has variations of course.
    - xyzzyz 3y ago
      Lines for literal bread were only 80s thing to be sure, but general shortages of everything, bribing officials to be advanced in a queue to get apartment, or a car, or bribing shopkeepers to get dibs on building materials, or bribing doctors to get better care, or bribing nurses to get better rooms and beds, has been a constant throughout most of 20th century.
- tetromino_ 3y ago
  Russia and Romania, as compared to the US, are known for dishonesty in some other areas: corruption and bribery in the government, cheating in schools and universities, counterfeit goods, financial fraud, tax evasion, etc. So it might be surprising to see honesty when it comes to returning a lost wallet. (I think the important difference might be "being dishonest to the system" vs. "being dishonest to a concrete individual in your community".)
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    “Known for” mostly stands for “western media paints them as”.
justinsaything 3y ago
Honestly USA is seen as an individualistic country and by extension its citizens as selfish. Total opposite of Eastern European countries like Romania and Russia.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  It is also a stereotype that doesn't fit most of the US, just like most stereotypes Americans have of Russia and Romania are wildly inaccurate.
  - justinsaything 3y ago
    On the contrary I think it fits most of the USA save for maybe the Southern States. As an Eastern European myself I'm interested in knowing excactly which stereotypes Americans hold. They might be mostly true as well.
    - kurthr 3y ago
      The problem with measuring USA, China, Russia is that they are so large and diverse that you'll get very different results depending on where you are. It would be like saying "Europe". Apparently, they used the largest 5 cities in each country, which I suppose helps make for more comparable results. But for example in Texas I'd expect the results of San Antonio/Austin/Dallas to be significantly different (they are culturally) even though they are only separated by only a few hundred km. However, I can say in the US one of the biggest differences is just rural vs urban. The likelihood of things disappearing in cities vs towns is higher, I suspect because fewer people know each other. I'd also say that changes over time are fairly dramatic. Many people in the US didn't lock cars or homes until the 80s and 90s or even 00s.
      - avgcorrection 3y ago
        > The problem with measuring USA, China, Russia is that they are so large and diverse that you'll get very different results depending on where you are. It would be like saying "Europe". No it wouldn’t, not for the US. Europe has 50 different countries and 24 official languages. The US has two widespread languages and apparently has so little cultural variety that you can move across the country without any major culture shocks (at least I haven’t heard any). It could sometimes make sense to, at a distance, talk about certain regions like a monolith, like for example Scandinavia. But it makes no sense to talk about Belgium and Greece in the same sentence. > However, I can say in the US one of the biggest differences is just rural vs urban. Interestingly people often generalize “Europe” based on what happens in the handful of 4 million+ cities.
Valodim 3y ago
Not sure this "slid" anywhere, selfishness was never a particularly unacceptable character trait culturally in the US...
- yostrovs 3y ago
  You can have selfish people that don't share their winnings with others, but who are nonetheless decent and would return another's wallet.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    I'd point out selfishness has different dimensions. When Chinese people get egoism and selfish behavior pointed out (in contexts where this could happen to soneome of any ethnicity) frequently they'll tell you it is oriented around their family and not their "self". That is a circle of concern bigger than your "self" but can also be an extension of the self and certainly can draw people away from being supportive of the community.
    - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
      That's a bit vague, though. On the one hand, there is most definitely a prioritization of love and concern (close family comes before extended family, and onward, all the way up to the entire human species according to principles of subsidiarity), so you have a moral obligation to prioritize those closer to you, all else remaining equal. But you don't get to intentionally (undesirable side effects can be permissible) commit evil acts against people of less concern (like robbing your neighbor to send your kid to college) for the sake of people of greater concern (or vice versa, of course). That's how the mafia operates. It's analogous to the difference between patriotism (the healthy and obligatory love of and concern for one's own nation) and chauvinism (the idolatrous and narcissistic "love" of one's own nation coupled with contempt and condescension for other nations).
dontlaugh 3y ago
Not a good sign for whom exactly?
- mc32 3y ago
  Good sign for Russia and Romania, a bad trajectory for the US.
mihaic 3y ago
As a Romanian, I completely agree. The US does need a bit more civic spirit that can't be generated from market incentives -- it needs to be indoctrinated so to speak from a young age.
rootusrootus 3y ago
I would suspect that choosing five major cities in the US doesn't make for a representative sample, and you could end up with wildly different overall results depending on which five cities you chose.

Question is, how did the US slide down below Russia and Romania? That's not a good sign.

by mc32 3y ago

Question is, how did the US slide down below Russia and Romania? That's not a good sign.

bogtog 3y ago

Romania is very different from Russia

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

What sort of question is that? Why do you assume that Russia and Romania should rank low in civic honesty?

mc32 3y ago
In Eastern countries, officially things were "cooperative" centric, in reality, breadlines and such meant you looked out for number one.
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  That's extreme generalization and is not based on reality. I will assume the author never been to Eastern bloc. Breadlines are a thing of just end of 80's. So 5 years max of entire history of the region? I find the culture was less individualistic. Now of course it shifted but still core values remain. And each part of the bloc has variations of course.
  - xyzzyz 3y ago
    Lines for literal bread were only 80s thing to be sure, but general shortages of everything, bribing officials to be advanced in a queue to get apartment, or a car, or bribing shopkeepers to get dibs on building materials, or bribing doctors to get better care, or bribing nurses to get better rooms and beds, has been a constant throughout most of 20th century.
tetromino_ 3y ago
Russia and Romania, as compared to the US, are known for dishonesty in some other areas: corruption and bribery in the government, cheating in schools and universities, counterfeit goods, financial fraud, tax evasion, etc. So it might be surprising to see honesty when it comes to returning a lost wallet. (I think the important difference might be "being dishonest to the system" vs. "being dishonest to a concrete individual in your community".)
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  “Known for” mostly stands for “western media paints them as”.

justinsaything 3y ago

Honestly USA is seen as an individualistic country and by extension its citizens as selfish. Total opposite of Eastern European countries like Romania and Russia.

zdragnar 3y ago
It is also a stereotype that doesn't fit most of the US, just like most stereotypes Americans have of Russia and Romania are wildly inaccurate.
- justinsaything 3y ago
  On the contrary I think it fits most of the USA save for maybe the Southern States. As an Eastern European myself I'm interested in knowing excactly which stereotypes Americans hold. They might be mostly true as well.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    The problem with measuring USA, China, Russia is that they are so large and diverse that you'll get very different results depending on where you are. It would be like saying "Europe". Apparently, they used the largest 5 cities in each country, which I suppose helps make for more comparable results. But for example in Texas I'd expect the results of San Antonio/Austin/Dallas to be significantly different (they are culturally) even though they are only separated by only a few hundred km. However, I can say in the US one of the biggest differences is just rural vs urban. The likelihood of things disappearing in cities vs towns is higher, I suspect because fewer people know each other. I'd also say that changes over time are fairly dramatic. Many people in the US didn't lock cars or homes until the 80s and 90s or even 00s.
    - avgcorrection 3y ago
      > The problem with measuring USA, China, Russia is that they are so large and diverse that you'll get very different results depending on where you are. It would be like saying "Europe". No it wouldn’t, not for the US. Europe has 50 different countries and 24 official languages. The US has two widespread languages and apparently has so little cultural variety that you can move across the country without any major culture shocks (at least I haven’t heard any). It could sometimes make sense to, at a distance, talk about certain regions like a monolith, like for example Scandinavia. But it makes no sense to talk about Belgium and Greece in the same sentence. > However, I can say in the US one of the biggest differences is just rural vs urban. Interestingly people often generalize “Europe” based on what happens in the handful of 4 million+ cities.

Valodim 3y ago

Not sure this "slid" anywhere, selfishness was never a particularly unacceptable character trait culturally in the US...

yostrovs 3y ago
You can have selfish people that don't share their winnings with others, but who are nonetheless decent and would return another's wallet.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I'd point out selfishness has different dimensions. When Chinese people get egoism and selfish behavior pointed out (in contexts where this could happen to soneome of any ethnicity) frequently they'll tell you it is oriented around their family and not their "self". That is a circle of concern bigger than your "self" but can also be an extension of the self and certainly can draw people away from being supportive of the community.
  - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
    That's a bit vague, though. On the one hand, there is most definitely a prioritization of love and concern (close family comes before extended family, and onward, all the way up to the entire human species according to principles of subsidiarity), so you have a moral obligation to prioritize those closer to you, all else remaining equal. But you don't get to intentionally (undesirable side effects can be permissible) commit evil acts against people of less concern (like robbing your neighbor to send your kid to college) for the sake of people of greater concern (or vice versa, of course). That's how the mafia operates. It's analogous to the difference between patriotism (the healthy and obligatory love of and concern for one's own nation) and chauvinism (the idolatrous and narcissistic "love" of one's own nation coupled with contempt and condescension for other nations).

dontlaugh 3y ago

Not a good sign for whom exactly?

mc32 3y ago
Good sign for Russia and Romania, a bad trajectory for the US.

mihaic 3y ago

As a Romanian, I completely agree. The US does need a bit more civic spirit that can't be generated from market incentives -- it needs to be indoctrinated so to speak from a young age.

rootusrootus 3y ago

I would suspect that choosing five major cities in the US doesn't make for a representative sample, and you could end up with wildly different overall results depending on which five cities you chose.