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Indeed, and the assertion that 'only poor kids together' will behave even worse certainly needs backing up with data. It seems obvious to me (since the experim

Indeed, and the assertion that 'only poor kids together' will behave even worse certainly needs backing up with data. It seems obvious to me (since the experiment is repeated over and over within millions of families) that environment plays a major role in behaviour, but tbh I don't see good behaviour rubbing off onto the 'bad' kids in a mixed setting, it's almost always the other way around, or at best, a productive environment is disrupted by a few troublemakers. So 'good' kids should get an environment free of disruption so they can do what they do. And the 'bad' kids should get an environment much more focused on encouraging good behaviour, so they learn to do the good stuff too. Win-win.

II2II 3y ago
Except you run into a few problems when implementing that, especially for public schools. Proactive parents will typically want their children in good schools, regardless of their child's behavioural history. (This doesn't mean they refuse to acknowledge the issue, though some will. It simply means they want their children to have access to better supports.) There is an overarching philosophy within the school system that integration is better than separation. I don't know if this has to be the case, but it has been historically true. Think of it this way: even though some of the best teachers may want to serve the most challenging schools, good teachers almost always want to teach in good schools. Where does that leave the challenging schools? If they're lucky, with a great teacher. More often, with a bunch of mediocre teachers. Related to that, schools rarely have the resources to distinguish between students who would benefit from integration and those who would benefit from specialized and separate programs.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jacknews 3y ago
  I don't think you should segregate schools. Just classrooms. That gives students in 'bad' classes something to aspire to, and keeps them on the map rather than being written-off to a 'poor school', and parents should realise that, though their kid is in the 'bad' class, they are getting appropriate help, not just being discarded. In some ways, the 'best' teachers should be assigned to the 'bad' kids, certainly those with the best command of a class. The 'good' kids don't need that so much.
  - coredog64 3y ago
    These kids are still going to be on the bus, at recess, or at school functions. Not sure if you were ever bullied, but all three of those are prime locations due to lack of adult supervision.
    - jacknews 3y ago
      I mean bullying is a thing worldwide to some extent, but I think America needs to fix it's high school culture. If not it's entire, aggressive culture.
      - themitigating 3y ago
        Bullying is worldwide but to the same frequency and intensity?
        bobthepanda 3y ago
        IIRC bullying is much worse in East Asia (Korea/Japan/China)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    I think you still need something to incentivise the best teachers to voluntarily sign up for the lowest performing classes. Obviously its way more prestigious to be the teacher with all the ivy league destined students than the teacher whose students are just trying to get set up for a community college or a blue collar apprenticeship. [This is not to say the latter cohort is less intelligent, capable, or important-- just less prestigious.]
    - jacknews 3y ago
      I see teaching these kids as a specialization in itself, so the incentive is to be a great 'turnaround' teacher, plus the pay should reflect that it is a difficult specialization.
- themitigating 3y ago
  "Proactive parents will typically want their children in good schools, regardless of their child's behavioural history" Why wouldn't this apply to private schools especially because in that situation parent's have financial leverage? Edit Another comment said that private schools have an incentive to provide a good service otherwise people will take their money and leave. I want to temper my statment about parent's changing schools because 1. Unlike grocery stores or gas stations how many schools would be within reasonable distance where a parent could easily change. 2. "Customers take their money and leave" doesn't seem to happen that often with every other business. It's a constant theme here where we complain about the general public continuing to use substandard products. Yes it's a serious product (child's education) but factor in my points. 3. Changing schools could be traumatic for a child because they made friends, comfortable with teachers, familiar with the school. School isn't where you buy gas or go to the gym. Children are young AND emotional, stability is probably ideal. This means parents don't have as much leverage as I first stated 4. What metric do parents use? Grades, bullying? If grades schools will have a financial incentive to inflate more than public schools. Public schools and private both have standardized tests, however a report card from a private school is a subjective judgements from the teacher that the parent will use as a metric If bullying and a parent complains once should the other child be expelled? How does this system work? What if there are no witnesses, bully denies it. What about verbal abuse, what if no one hears it? If private schools start expelling bullies why aren't they required to teach children like public schools. Charter schools are supposed to be about a parents choice why should a child, bully or not, have less rights especially since they receive public money.
- scythe 3y ago
  >There is an overarching philosophy within the school system that integration is better than separation. I don't think it's fair to Black or female students to equate their integration with the "integration" of students who are specifically disruptive.
danaris 3y ago
While there's obvious classism (and very-slightly-more-veiled racism) in the assumptions that "poor kids" will be more disruptive in class, there is, to my understanding, substantial data backing up the perception, with causal mechanisms that have nothing to do with race or "poor breeding", and everything to do with how grindingly awful it is to be poor in America.
- droopyEyelids 3y ago
  Agreed, and to the parent comment's point, I believe the studies that prove this have already been done, it's just that they study the material effects of poverty in america, so they're more specific than 'poverty' Kids have more behavior problems and remember things poorly when they're hungry. Kids that don't have a stable housing situation struggle to focus in school. Kids with untreated medical problems struggle to focus in school. Kids with absent parents (like a parent that tries to work multiple jobs) struggle in school Kids with parents in unstable relationships (poverty screws up relationships and forces people into suboptimal relationships to combine resources) do poorly in school and are more susceptible to abuse Kids that are the victim of abuse struggle to focus in school.
  - kneebonian 3y ago
    Seems that the biggest problem all relates to an unstable family life. Hey you guys remember when in the 80s we convinced all the women that it would be empowering and freeing to start slaving away as a corporate drone and that would be the best life for them, that kids didn't need 2 parents at home? Isn't it great how that panned out. EDIT To be clear I'm not saying women shouldn't be in the workforce, but the fact of the matter is that at some point they convinced us all we had to have 2 parents working and that's when things went to hell. It was great for a little bit while everyone was making a bit of extra cash, but basically what happened was the supply of labor doubled, and when supply goes up...
    - jacknews 3y ago
      sure everything would be rosy if women just spent their time breastfeeding somewhere near the sink or cooker.
kjkjadksj 3y ago
That still only goes so far because sometimes its a disrupted life at home that causes the in class disruptions.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
Only, the measure of what constitutes 'bad behavior' is inconsistent as heck. I had cerebral palsy and undiagnosed ADHD as a kid and was constantly being sent to the principles office for simply 'spacing out' and getting distracted. I would have been royally screwed if I had been diverted to a school for kids with behavioral problems. Eventually I got glasses, got medicated, and thrived, but there were a lot of people who wanted to write me off without giving me a chance.
drak0n1c 3y ago
This used to be the case. Even in rural Wyoming. In each region there were at least one military-style dedicated boys school and girls school focused on disciplining bad students. Public school students would receive a few detentions and suspensions, followed soon after by expulsion to the boys school. Parents could also voluntarily and temporarily enroll their kid there if they needed disciplinary help. The boys school had a good reputation and would have engagement with the local schools via sports and dances.
- jim-jim-jim 3y ago
  I benefited immensely from a homosocial environment, though in a snootier form of what you're describing. There's basically no incentive to be a cheeky little shit when there are no girls around to impress. I always thought it'd be nice if same-sex education were not just limited to expensive private schools and borderline prisons. I reckon a lot drama for students and teachers alike would vanish in these settings.

II2II 3y ago

Except you run into a few problems when implementing that, especially for public schools. Proactive parents will typically want their children in good schools, regardless of their child's behavioural history. (This doesn't mean they refuse to acknowledge the issue, though some will. It simply means they want their children to have access to better supports.) There is an overarching philosophy within the school system that integration is better than separation. I don't know if this has to be the case, but it has been historically true. Think of it this way: even though some of the best teachers may want to serve the most challenging schools, good teachers almost always want to teach in good schools. Where does that leave the challenging schools? If they're lucky, with a great teacher. More often, with a bunch of mediocre teachers. Related to that, schools rarely have the resources to distinguish between students who would benefit from integration and those who would benefit from specialized and separate programs.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jacknews 3y ago
I don't think you should segregate schools. Just classrooms. That gives students in 'bad' classes something to aspire to, and keeps them on the map rather than being written-off to a 'poor school', and parents should realise that, though their kid is in the 'bad' class, they are getting appropriate help, not just being discarded. In some ways, the 'best' teachers should be assigned to the 'bad' kids, certainly those with the best command of a class. The 'good' kids don't need that so much.
- coredog64 3y ago
  These kids are still going to be on the bus, at recess, or at school functions. Not sure if you were ever bullied, but all three of those are prime locations due to lack of adult supervision.
  - jacknews 3y ago
    I mean bullying is a thing worldwide to some extent, but I think America needs to fix it's high school culture. If not it's entire, aggressive culture.
    - themitigating 3y ago
      Bullying is worldwide but to the same frequency and intensity?
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        IIRC bullying is much worse in East Asia (Korea/Japan/China)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  I think you still need something to incentivise the best teachers to voluntarily sign up for the lowest performing classes. Obviously its way more prestigious to be the teacher with all the ivy league destined students than the teacher whose students are just trying to get set up for a community college or a blue collar apprenticeship. [This is not to say the latter cohort is less intelligent, capable, or important-- just less prestigious.]
  - jacknews 3y ago
    I see teaching these kids as a specialization in itself, so the incentive is to be a great 'turnaround' teacher, plus the pay should reflect that it is a difficult specialization.
themitigating 3y ago
"Proactive parents will typically want their children in good schools, regardless of their child's behavioural history" Why wouldn't this apply to private schools especially because in that situation parent's have financial leverage? Edit Another comment said that private schools have an incentive to provide a good service otherwise people will take their money and leave. I want to temper my statment about parent's changing schools because 1. Unlike grocery stores or gas stations how many schools would be within reasonable distance where a parent could easily change. 2. "Customers take their money and leave" doesn't seem to happen that often with every other business. It's a constant theme here where we complain about the general public continuing to use substandard products. Yes it's a serious product (child's education) but factor in my points. 3. Changing schools could be traumatic for a child because they made friends, comfortable with teachers, familiar with the school. School isn't where you buy gas or go to the gym. Children are young AND emotional, stability is probably ideal. This means parents don't have as much leverage as I first stated 4. What metric do parents use? Grades, bullying? If grades schools will have a financial incentive to inflate more than public schools. Public schools and private both have standardized tests, however a report card from a private school is a subjective judgements from the teacher that the parent will use as a metric If bullying and a parent complains once should the other child be expelled? How does this system work? What if there are no witnesses, bully denies it. What about verbal abuse, what if no one hears it? If private schools start expelling bullies why aren't they required to teach children like public schools. Charter schools are supposed to be about a parents choice why should a child, bully or not, have less rights especially since they receive public money.
scythe 3y ago
>There is an overarching philosophy within the school system that integration is better than separation. I don't think it's fair to Black or female students to equate their integration with the "integration" of students who are specifically disruptive.

danaris 3y ago

While there's obvious classism (and very-slightly-more-veiled racism) in the assumptions that "poor kids" will be more disruptive in class, there is, to my understanding, substantial data backing up the perception, with causal mechanisms that have nothing to do with race or "poor breeding", and everything to do with how grindingly awful it is to be poor in America.

droopyEyelids 3y ago
Agreed, and to the parent comment's point, I believe the studies that prove this have already been done, it's just that they study the material effects of poverty in america, so they're more specific than 'poverty' Kids have more behavior problems and remember things poorly when they're hungry. Kids that don't have a stable housing situation struggle to focus in school. Kids with untreated medical problems struggle to focus in school. Kids with absent parents (like a parent that tries to work multiple jobs) struggle in school Kids with parents in unstable relationships (poverty screws up relationships and forces people into suboptimal relationships to combine resources) do poorly in school and are more susceptible to abuse Kids that are the victim of abuse struggle to focus in school.
- kneebonian 3y ago
  Seems that the biggest problem all relates to an unstable family life. Hey you guys remember when in the 80s we convinced all the women that it would be empowering and freeing to start slaving away as a corporate drone and that would be the best life for them, that kids didn't need 2 parents at home? Isn't it great how that panned out. EDIT To be clear I'm not saying women shouldn't be in the workforce, but the fact of the matter is that at some point they convinced us all we had to have 2 parents working and that's when things went to hell. It was great for a little bit while everyone was making a bit of extra cash, but basically what happened was the supply of labor doubled, and when supply goes up...
  - jacknews 3y ago
    sure everything would be rosy if women just spent their time breastfeeding somewhere near the sink or cooker.

kjkjadksj 3y ago

That still only goes so far because sometimes its a disrupted life at home that causes the in class disruptions.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

Only, the measure of what constitutes 'bad behavior' is inconsistent as heck. I had cerebral palsy and undiagnosed ADHD as a kid and was constantly being sent to the principles office for simply 'spacing out' and getting distracted. I would have been royally screwed if I had been diverted to a school for kids with behavioral problems. Eventually I got glasses, got medicated, and thrived, but there were a lot of people who wanted to write me off without giving me a chance.

drak0n1c 3y ago

This used to be the case. Even in rural Wyoming. In each region there were at least one military-style dedicated boys school and girls school focused on disciplining bad students. Public school students would receive a few detentions and suspensions, followed soon after by expulsion to the boys school. Parents could also voluntarily and temporarily enroll their kid there if they needed disciplinary help. The boys school had a good reputation and would have engagement with the local schools via sports and dances.

jim-jim-jim 3y ago
I benefited immensely from a homosocial environment, though in a snootier form of what you're describing. There's basically no incentive to be a cheeky little shit when there are no girls around to impress. I always thought it'd be nice if same-sex education were not just limited to expensive private schools and borderline prisons. I reckon a lot drama for students and teachers alike would vanish in these settings.