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Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple

Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple), they know how to educate children writ large. Compounding that, most people went through the education system as students, so they believe they have insider knowledge as to how the system works. Usually their advice on how to fix the system is geared toward fixing the frustrations they personally felt as a student. In reality, most people are only exposed to the education system as consumers, and therefore know next to nothing about how it actually works. Doesn't stop them from spouting off what they think they know on internet forums and blogs though. They enjoy pointing out what they see as problems, and are happy to offer quick fixes born in ignorance that have either already been tried and don't work, or don't solve the problem for reasons obvious to people currently working on it. Or better yet, the supposed problem isn't one at all, but a boogeyman that politicians are currently pushing to scare voters. If you want to fix education, get into the mix and actually help. Sitting on the sidelines complaining isn't helping anyone. If your perspective about the education system is along the lines of "people who can't, teach", as seems to be in vogue these days, then you're really part of the problem.

fn-mote 3y ago
> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? I read this and was expecting /s but apparently not. Please address something concrete! In the US, there are significant problems with the educational system. It's ok to write a theoretical piece thinking about ways to do things differently. The author has some good ideas that do not deserve to be dismissed lightly. They can even be applied within an existing educational system. Examples that I think should resonate on HN: - 1C: Produce Instead Of Consuming - 1D: Do Real Things, Not Fake Things
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Well, there are a couple things going on here. First is the blog post, which I can't really make sense of. It's 12,000 words on how to navigate high school without a single reference or citation. No evidence is presented whatsoever to support any of the assertions made. It purports to be a guide for 14 year olds but is written in a manner and published in a medium that is not accessible for 14 year olds; not many 14 year olds are reading 36 pages worth of blogs on substack. The author doesn't seem to teach 14 year olds or teach at all. He does not seem to have done any research for the post -- he hasn't spoken to any 14 year olds, or anyone else who has spoken to or teaches them for that matter. Paul Graham gets a quote though. So really, I'm left to assume that this is just a letter from the author to his past self. That's how this reads to me. As for the concrete advice you list, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Saying something like "get a computer" or "make a thing" will play great here on HN. But this is not advice 14 year olds want or need. Kids are creating things all the time. You do not have to tell them to create things. In fact, telling a 14 year old that they need to get a computer to before they can produce shows a distinct lack of understanding of how 14 year old express themselves creatively. Most of the advice in that section is focused on how to find a cheap computer, not how to create anything. If you actually listen to the problems kids have today, it's not that they have a lack of creative outlets. The problems they are facing revolve around managing mental health issues, and there's not a single word about that in all the 12,000+ written. -- The other thing going on is the generic HN discussion on education the blog post has catalyzed. The blog post doesn't really touch on the discussion happening here, so it's kind of separate, but still related. Here on HN, the discussion often revolves around the Big Important Feelings posters have about the education system. You're right, there are problems, but they are rarely identified here. The solutions offered therefore often aim to solve the wrong problems. For example, a lot of HN posters have a problem with the number of administrators employed at universities, and they even like to cite a ratio of admin to students or admin to faculty. Then they say "They ratio is too high! Fire the administrators!" This is a classic example of Chesterton's Fence. Firing the administrators and hiring more faculty seems like a great idea from the perspective of the student, who interacts with faculty and not administrators. But from my perspective as a member of the faculty, I would not want this at all and it would make my work and the work of my students harder (for many reasons I have articulated in previous comments if you're interested in those). For the HN crowd, this is like saying "The computer is running too many processes. It looks like a lot of those are daemons and system processes, so let's get rid of the operating system to free up resources. That way we can run more programs, because after all, that's the point of the computer." The average HN poster will immediately see 100 reasons why that's a bad idea in a computer system, but then go to advocate for something very similar in principle when it comes to the education system.
  - wudangmonk 3y ago
    The number of processes in a system will only give you the potential points of failure. If we measure computer resources we come a completely different conclusion. would you use an OS that uses up more ram and cpu resources than all the programs you run inside of it combined?. How about a restaurant with more managers than cooks and waiters?. Schools with more administrators than teachers seems like the perfect example of the iron law of oligarchy to me.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      > Schools with more administrators than teachers seems like the perfect example of the iron law of oligarchy to me. So then let's cut administrators. We'll start with one of the most expensive departments on campus: IT. Let's just zero their budget, it will save a ton of money, and we will get to fire a ton of administrators. Now I bet you and everyone else on HN will tell me 100 reasons why getting rid of the IT department on campus will be a massive detriment to campus life, and make it a terrible place for people to live and work in the 21st century. But will the HN community be able to do the same for the DEI office? No, HN is very quick to say that DEI should be axed, the administrators do nothing, and they are just a drain on university resources. Except that a lot of people on our campus find that the efforts of the DEI office actually do serve the goals of the larger community. Some of the brightest young leaders among our student body wouldn't be here but for the efforts and support of the administrators in the DEI office. But HN doesn't know these stories. I can't say we'd be better off without them. Then you can go down the list of things to cut. Do we cut health services? Well, that would be nice, but the local community doesn't have the necessary health infrastructure to support the student population, and the USA doesn't have socialized medicine. Therefore, parents would rather send their darling precious to a school that does have a health center, so we can't cut that. Do we cut the sports program? HN crowd sure likes to gripe about the athletics department, but the HN crowd also can be found in the Linux Lab at their respective schools, so of course they would be fine with this. But as it turns out that young people really like to exercise and play sports, so cutting the athletics department will seriously deter brilliant young people who are also physically active. So we can't cut that. Do we cut the police department? I mean, why does a school need a police department anyway? Well as it turns out, parents prefer to send their precious darlings to a padded environment, where the blast radius of youthful indiscretions are contained, and don't leak into the unforgiving federal and state criminal justice systems. These days, large universities like Stanford aren't just schools. They are actually small cities, and they provide services you'd expect of a city. It turns out faculty aren't the only people on campus who keep things running smoothly, or who serve to implement the educational goals of the university. There are plenty of administrators who work to do the same. We can't just axe them arbitrarily and expect things will automatically improve because they were administrators, and who needs administrators? I think you'll find a lot of pushback when you start suggesting cuts you think are obvious, and not just from the administrators themselves, but from the people they serve.
istjohn 3y ago
The example of phonics vs. sight reading shows that professional educators are just the blind leading the blind. Parents have known for years that phonics work, but institutionalists dismissed their complaints as spouting off from the sidelines. Challenging established authority is the engine of progress in science and society. Appeal to authority is the last resort of those who have no other ground to stand on. If you want to elevate the discourse, engage with what people are actually saying, with their ideas, instead of dismissing them as idiot outsiders.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  > Appeal to authority is the last resort of those who have no other ground to stand on. If you want to elevate the discourse, engage with what people are actually saying, with their ideas, instead of dismissing them as idiot outsiders. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm appealing to evidence/experience versus ignorance and Big Important Feelings. As a scholar and an educator, I'm the first person to say how important it is to cite your sources and to argue from evidence. So if you're going to write 12,000 words about how the education system sucks and how to get through it, wouldn't you say that some of those words should be devoted to citations? Or at least the recitation of facts? Or barring that, at least establishing the background of the author to dispense such advice? Is a single citation asking too much? There is one external authority cited in this entire 30 page blog post: Paul Graham. I guess that really says it all though, doesn't it? 14 year olds don't know who Paul Graham is. It really tells me the intended audience of this is not 14 year old kids, but for HN.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    But but but but there's a single instance of teachers being pushed to do things the wrong way and doing it (because all "educators" are the exact same rank right) for quite some time even though it was wrong so that means we have carte blanche to call the whole system broken.
- agentdrtran 3y ago
  The phonic issue is absurd, can you imagine if an entire industry followed a fad for years with minimal pushback? Now, if you'll excuse me I've been in a cave for a few years and need to check my crypto balances.
starcraft2wol 3y ago
> come into our job and tell us how to do it? Many people practice teaching in a variety of settings. Their demonstrated ability has little correlation with their credentials. If someone gets stuck on an amateur plumbing or construction project, they call a professional. In other words, the professional competence is trivially demonstrable and applicable. Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind? > they believe they have insider knowledge as to how the system works. Although the average person may be incorrect about how to fix it. It's not a good sign that almost everyone leaves with the feeling that something is deeply wrong and almost any alternative would make more sense. > because they have had one child Merely being exposed to more examples isn't data, you also need superior methodology. Even in educational academic studies you will find a lot to be desired in this regard. The people I know who are most vocal about education have many children (4-8+). And they put their money where their mouth is and homeschool. Also, their children tend to grow up with a wide variety of personalities and lifestyles. > get into the mix and actually help The system is designed to remove autonomy and responsibility from teachers. They are overwhelmed by curriculum, and program mandates from school, district, and state. The best teachers I had were essentially opted out. A few completely donated their time and refused to participate in any school trainings or events outside their classroom. The best way I can see to get involved is probably to advocate for vouchers and organize teaching in your neighborhood.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  > Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind? Incredible hubris to say such a thing, after we all went through a pandemic, during which teachers were expected to risk their lives and actually sacrificed their lives in service of keeping their communities running. That's all I have to say to you.
  - starcraft2wol 3y ago
    That doesn't address the point. I also do not agree with that narrative.
Scubabear68 3y ago
Teaching is not nearly as hard as you lay it out to be. The problem is teaching is los pay and low status in most places, and as such mostly attracts people who are terrible teachers. Our kids are in private school now because our public school is a dumpster fire of bad teachers and admins. The private school teachers don’t get paid a lot but they are valued and highly motivated to actually reach kids. The difference is astounding. And the private school teachers aren’t doing anything exotic or difficult. They are teaching just like kids were taught decades ago. Heck, my fifth grader is learning Latin.
- istjohn 3y ago
  Your comment is self-contradictory. You say the problem is low teacher pay and status, but then point out the private school teachers aren't highly paid, but are motivated. If I were to speculate, I suspect the differences are: 1. Modestly higher pay in the private school, attracting better teachers 2. More selective student body in the private school, making the school environment more conducive to learning for average and above-average students, and more attractive to teachers 3. No public-sector union in the private school, leading to more accountability for teachers The second point is important. Private schools exclude all the kids whose parents lack the motivation, time, or resources to place their child in an exclusive institution. They exclude the children who didn't learn the behavioral skills to conform to the expectations of a private school. They exclude many children with disabilities even if they can't explicitly discriminate. Meanwhile, public schools are required to include children with disabilities (often involving disruptive behavior) in class with other students to the extent practical. Public schools are charged with upholding the social contract that all children are entitled to a Free Appropriate Public Education regardless of their social status, wealth, disability, or the financial or emotional capacity of their parents. It's a heavy burden to carry, but it's one that we as a society have decided is worth the cost. Your children's private school doesn't carry that burden.
  - Scubabear68 3y ago
    My post wasn’t contradictory, because you missed the part about status. Our private school teachers are treasured, and are honored to be part of the long tradition of this particular school. My children are also the same children they were in public school, but they are learning more now because they have better teachers. The knowledge gap of them transitioning from public to private school was considerable. Intrinsic motivation is a factor, I agree with that. But it is more than that. Public schools (as a rule) are not getting our best and brightest, they’re more getting those who are settling for it for their job. * Editing to add I agree on lack of unions in private schools. Our public school teachers in NJ at least have no real accountability at all.
jovial_cavalier 3y ago
>Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple), they know how to educate children writ large. They don't care about how to educate children writ large. They care to the extent that they think you are failing their child, specifically. You would do well to remember that as an educator, you have a responsibility to the public. If you really find parents concerns to be beneath your dignity, perhaps you shouldn't be a teacher.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Personally I teach adults, so in my capacity as a teacher, parental concerns are not my concerns. In my capacity as a citizen of this country and as a taxpayer, I also don't care about busybody "concerned parents" who feel the system is failing them personally. My concern in this capacity comes down to how the system is building a better community for everyone. Individual parental concerns shouldn't turn into culture wars.
  - jovial_cavalier 3y ago
    What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to their own children, they are not being "busybodies". It is their right to voice their concerns, and it is the duty of educators to listen to these concerns and take them seriously. You can't just brush them off. Even if the parent is being unreasonable, it is part of your job description to make them see reason.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      Sorry, to be clear I teach adults, so it's not part of my job description to make any parents see reason. The concerns of one adult do not impact the way I teach any other adult, no matter how they are related. As for my role as a citizen, I'm thinking specifically about my local community, which is beset by people who have very loud feelings about certain books existing in the school library. A lot of communities are facing this issue. I call these people busybodies because nothing that they do or say is based in reality, but only on their feelings. It's feelings all the way down just, like the linked blog post. All they're doing is making everyone's lives harder: other parents, teachers, administrators, and especially the students. For what? There's no actual problem being cited. This is all to quell their own feelings about books. That's pretty much the definition of being a busybody.
guy98238710 3y ago
> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Teachers apparently need to be told, because they spend YEARS teaching kids how to do arithmetic on paper instead of handing out calculators and focusing on high-level mathematical modeling instead. There are lots of such insanities in the curriculum, not to mention loads of propaganda (not a US citizen, but AFAIK there is a lot of propaganda in US schools too).
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Not to say anything about the merits of your idea, but do you have anything to back it up? I mean, I'm assuming you do, because this whole sub thread I started was about people who don't know what they're talking about telling others who know better what to do. And I presume your evidence must be very compelling, for you to feel confident in calling what others are doing for a living "insane" and "propaganda". What I don't understand, though, is why you're not providing this very compelling evidence along with your comment.
  - starcraft2wol 3y ago
    What evidence would satisfy you? If I produced a study I imagine this would not change your world view, especially considering it's your occupation.
  - guy98238710 3y ago
    Evidence of what? That doing arithmetic by hand like in 19th century (as opposed to arithmetic understanding/intuition/modeling) has zero applications in professional and personal life? Isn't that obvious? When was the last time you did long division by hand? Or that mathematical modeling does have applications in both personal and professional life? Isn't it trivial to come up with numerous examples? Or that mathematical modeling is so important it deserves place in the curriculum? Now that would be hard to show, but I never claimed it does. I just said it is relatively more valuable than pen-and-paper arithmetic, which is obvious from above two points. Also, status quo does not get free pass. I imagine you would find it really difficult to defend pen-and-paper arithmetic, especially when everyone can see it's just bureaucratic inertia and technophobia.

fn-mote 3y ago

> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? I read this and was expecting /s but apparently not. Please address something concrete! In the US, there are significant problems with the educational system. It's ok to write a theoretical piece thinking about ways to do things differently. The author has some good ideas that do not deserve to be dismissed lightly. They can even be applied within an existing educational system. Examples that I think should resonate on HN: - 1C: Produce Instead Of Consuming - 1D: Do Real Things, Not Fake Things

ModernMech 3y ago
Well, there are a couple things going on here. First is the blog post, which I can't really make sense of. It's 12,000 words on how to navigate high school without a single reference or citation. No evidence is presented whatsoever to support any of the assertions made. It purports to be a guide for 14 year olds but is written in a manner and published in a medium that is not accessible for 14 year olds; not many 14 year olds are reading 36 pages worth of blogs on substack. The author doesn't seem to teach 14 year olds or teach at all. He does not seem to have done any research for the post -- he hasn't spoken to any 14 year olds, or anyone else who has spoken to or teaches them for that matter. Paul Graham gets a quote though. So really, I'm left to assume that this is just a letter from the author to his past self. That's how this reads to me. As for the concrete advice you list, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Saying something like "get a computer" or "make a thing" will play great here on HN. But this is not advice 14 year olds want or need. Kids are creating things all the time. You do not have to tell them to create things. In fact, telling a 14 year old that they need to get a computer to before they can produce shows a distinct lack of understanding of how 14 year old express themselves creatively. Most of the advice in that section is focused on how to find a cheap computer, not how to create anything. If you actually listen to the problems kids have today, it's not that they have a lack of creative outlets. The problems they are facing revolve around managing mental health issues, and there's not a single word about that in all the 12,000+ written. -- The other thing going on is the generic HN discussion on education the blog post has catalyzed. The blog post doesn't really touch on the discussion happening here, so it's kind of separate, but still related. Here on HN, the discussion often revolves around the Big Important Feelings posters have about the education system. You're right, there are problems, but they are rarely identified here. The solutions offered therefore often aim to solve the wrong problems. For example, a lot of HN posters have a problem with the number of administrators employed at universities, and they even like to cite a ratio of admin to students or admin to faculty. Then they say "They ratio is too high! Fire the administrators!" This is a classic example of Chesterton's Fence. Firing the administrators and hiring more faculty seems like a great idea from the perspective of the student, who interacts with faculty and not administrators. But from my perspective as a member of the faculty, I would not want this at all and it would make my work and the work of my students harder (for many reasons I have articulated in previous comments if you're interested in those). For the HN crowd, this is like saying "The computer is running too many processes. It looks like a lot of those are daemons and system processes, so let's get rid of the operating system to free up resources. That way we can run more programs, because after all, that's the point of the computer." The average HN poster will immediately see 100 reasons why that's a bad idea in a computer system, but then go to advocate for something very similar in principle when it comes to the education system.
- wudangmonk 3y ago
  The number of processes in a system will only give you the potential points of failure. If we measure computer resources we come a completely different conclusion. would you use an OS that uses up more ram and cpu resources than all the programs you run inside of it combined?. How about a restaurant with more managers than cooks and waiters?. Schools with more administrators than teachers seems like the perfect example of the iron law of oligarchy to me.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    > Schools with more administrators than teachers seems like the perfect example of the iron law of oligarchy to me. So then let's cut administrators. We'll start with one of the most expensive departments on campus: IT. Let's just zero their budget, it will save a ton of money, and we will get to fire a ton of administrators. Now I bet you and everyone else on HN will tell me 100 reasons why getting rid of the IT department on campus will be a massive detriment to campus life, and make it a terrible place for people to live and work in the 21st century. But will the HN community be able to do the same for the DEI office? No, HN is very quick to say that DEI should be axed, the administrators do nothing, and they are just a drain on university resources. Except that a lot of people on our campus find that the efforts of the DEI office actually do serve the goals of the larger community. Some of the brightest young leaders among our student body wouldn't be here but for the efforts and support of the administrators in the DEI office. But HN doesn't know these stories. I can't say we'd be better off without them. Then you can go down the list of things to cut. Do we cut health services? Well, that would be nice, but the local community doesn't have the necessary health infrastructure to support the student population, and the USA doesn't have socialized medicine. Therefore, parents would rather send their darling precious to a school that does have a health center, so we can't cut that. Do we cut the sports program? HN crowd sure likes to gripe about the athletics department, but the HN crowd also can be found in the Linux Lab at their respective schools, so of course they would be fine with this. But as it turns out that young people really like to exercise and play sports, so cutting the athletics department will seriously deter brilliant young people who are also physically active. So we can't cut that. Do we cut the police department? I mean, why does a school need a police department anyway? Well as it turns out, parents prefer to send their precious darlings to a padded environment, where the blast radius of youthful indiscretions are contained, and don't leak into the unforgiving federal and state criminal justice systems. These days, large universities like Stanford aren't just schools. They are actually small cities, and they provide services you'd expect of a city. It turns out faculty aren't the only people on campus who keep things running smoothly, or who serve to implement the educational goals of the university. There are plenty of administrators who work to do the same. We can't just axe them arbitrarily and expect things will automatically improve because they were administrators, and who needs administrators? I think you'll find a lot of pushback when you start suggesting cuts you think are obvious, and not just from the administrators themselves, but from the people they serve.

istjohn 3y ago

The example of phonics vs. sight reading shows that professional educators are just the blind leading the blind. Parents have known for years that phonics work, but institutionalists dismissed their complaints as spouting off from the sidelines. Challenging established authority is the engine of progress in science and society. Appeal to authority is the last resort of those who have no other ground to stand on. If you want to elevate the discourse, engage with what people are actually saying, with their ideas, instead of dismissing them as idiot outsiders.

ModernMech 3y ago
> Appeal to authority is the last resort of those who have no other ground to stand on. If you want to elevate the discourse, engage with what people are actually saying, with their ideas, instead of dismissing them as idiot outsiders. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm appealing to evidence/experience versus ignorance and Big Important Feelings. As a scholar and an educator, I'm the first person to say how important it is to cite your sources and to argue from evidence. So if you're going to write 12,000 words about how the education system sucks and how to get through it, wouldn't you say that some of those words should be devoted to citations? Or at least the recitation of facts? Or barring that, at least establishing the background of the author to dispense such advice? Is a single citation asking too much? There is one external authority cited in this entire 30 page blog post: Paul Graham. I guess that really says it all though, doesn't it? 14 year olds don't know who Paul Graham is. It really tells me the intended audience of this is not 14 year old kids, but for HN.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  But but but but there's a single instance of teachers being pushed to do things the wrong way and doing it (because all "educators" are the exact same rank right) for quite some time even though it was wrong so that means we have carte blanche to call the whole system broken.
agentdrtran 3y ago
The phonic issue is absurd, can you imagine if an entire industry followed a fad for years with minimal pushback? Now, if you'll excuse me I've been in a cave for a few years and need to check my crypto balances.

starcraft2wol 3y ago

> come into our job and tell us how to do it? Many people practice teaching in a variety of settings. Their demonstrated ability has little correlation with their credentials. If someone gets stuck on an amateur plumbing or construction project, they call a professional. In other words, the professional competence is trivially demonstrable and applicable. Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind? > they believe they have insider knowledge as to how the system works. Although the average person may be incorrect about how to fix it. It's not a good sign that almost everyone leaves with the feeling that something is deeply wrong and almost any alternative would make more sense. > because they have had one child Merely being exposed to more examples isn't data, you also need superior methodology. Even in educational academic studies you will find a lot to be desired in this regard. The people I know who are most vocal about education have many children (4-8+). And they put their money where their mouth is and homeschool. Also, their children tend to grow up with a wide variety of personalities and lifestyles. > get into the mix and actually help The system is designed to remove autonomy and responsibility from teachers. They are overwhelmed by curriculum, and program mandates from school, district, and state. The best teachers I had were essentially opted out. A few completely donated their time and refused to participate in any school trainings or events outside their classroom. The best way I can see to get involved is probably to advocate for vouchers and organize teaching in your neighborhood.

ModernMech 3y ago
> Can you imagine needing a credentialed teacher to get you out of a bind? Incredible hubris to say such a thing, after we all went through a pandemic, during which teachers were expected to risk their lives and actually sacrificed their lives in service of keeping their communities running. That's all I have to say to you.
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  That doesn't address the point. I also do not agree with that narrative.

Scubabear68 3y ago

Teaching is not nearly as hard as you lay it out to be. The problem is teaching is los pay and low status in most places, and as such mostly attracts people who are terrible teachers. Our kids are in private school now because our public school is a dumpster fire of bad teachers and admins. The private school teachers don’t get paid a lot but they are valued and highly motivated to actually reach kids. The difference is astounding. And the private school teachers aren’t doing anything exotic or difficult. They are teaching just like kids were taught decades ago. Heck, my fifth grader is learning Latin.

istjohn 3y ago
Your comment is self-contradictory. You say the problem is low teacher pay and status, but then point out the private school teachers aren't highly paid, but are motivated. If I were to speculate, I suspect the differences are: 1. Modestly higher pay in the private school, attracting better teachers 2. More selective student body in the private school, making the school environment more conducive to learning for average and above-average students, and more attractive to teachers 3. No public-sector union in the private school, leading to more accountability for teachers The second point is important. Private schools exclude all the kids whose parents lack the motivation, time, or resources to place their child in an exclusive institution. They exclude the children who didn't learn the behavioral skills to conform to the expectations of a private school. They exclude many children with disabilities even if they can't explicitly discriminate. Meanwhile, public schools are required to include children with disabilities (often involving disruptive behavior) in class with other students to the extent practical. Public schools are charged with upholding the social contract that all children are entitled to a Free Appropriate Public Education regardless of their social status, wealth, disability, or the financial or emotional capacity of their parents. It's a heavy burden to carry, but it's one that we as a society have decided is worth the cost. Your children's private school doesn't carry that burden.
- Scubabear68 3y ago
  My post wasn’t contradictory, because you missed the part about status. Our private school teachers are treasured, and are honored to be part of the long tradition of this particular school. My children are also the same children they were in public school, but they are learning more now because they have better teachers. The knowledge gap of them transitioning from public to private school was considerable. Intrinsic motivation is a factor, I agree with that. But it is more than that. Public schools (as a rule) are not getting our best and brightest, they’re more getting those who are settling for it for their job. * Editing to add I agree on lack of unions in private schools. Our public school teachers in NJ at least have no real accountability at all.

jovial_cavalier 3y ago

>Parents love to think that because they have had one child (or maybe a couple), they know how to educate children writ large. They don't care about how to educate children writ large. They care to the extent that they think you are failing their child, specifically. You would do well to remember that as an educator, you have a responsibility to the public. If you really find parents concerns to be beneath your dignity, perhaps you shouldn't be a teacher.

ModernMech 3y ago
Personally I teach adults, so in my capacity as a teacher, parental concerns are not my concerns. In my capacity as a citizen of this country and as a taxpayer, I also don't care about busybody "concerned parents" who feel the system is failing them personally. My concern in this capacity comes down to how the system is building a better community for everyone. Individual parental concerns shouldn't turn into culture wars.
- jovial_cavalier 3y ago
  What I'm trying to say is that when it comes to their own children, they are not being "busybodies". It is their right to voice their concerns, and it is the duty of educators to listen to these concerns and take them seriously. You can't just brush them off. Even if the parent is being unreasonable, it is part of your job description to make them see reason.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    Sorry, to be clear I teach adults, so it's not part of my job description to make any parents see reason. The concerns of one adult do not impact the way I teach any other adult, no matter how they are related. As for my role as a citizen, I'm thinking specifically about my local community, which is beset by people who have very loud feelings about certain books existing in the school library. A lot of communities are facing this issue. I call these people busybodies because nothing that they do or say is based in reality, but only on their feelings. It's feelings all the way down just, like the linked blog post. All they're doing is making everyone's lives harder: other parents, teachers, administrators, and especially the students. For what? There's no actual problem being cited. This is all to quell their own feelings about books. That's pretty much the definition of being a busybody.

guy98238710 3y ago

> Yes, don't we all hate it when people come into our job and tell us how to do it? Teachers apparently need to be told, because they spend YEARS teaching kids how to do arithmetic on paper instead of handing out calculators and focusing on high-level mathematical modeling instead. There are lots of such insanities in the curriculum, not to mention loads of propaganda (not a US citizen, but AFAIK there is a lot of propaganda in US schools too).

ModernMech 3y ago
Not to say anything about the merits of your idea, but do you have anything to back it up? I mean, I'm assuming you do, because this whole sub thread I started was about people who don't know what they're talking about telling others who know better what to do. And I presume your evidence must be very compelling, for you to feel confident in calling what others are doing for a living "insane" and "propaganda". What I don't understand, though, is why you're not providing this very compelling evidence along with your comment.
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  What evidence would satisfy you? If I produced a study I imagine this would not change your world view, especially considering it's your occupation.
- guy98238710 3y ago
  Evidence of what? That doing arithmetic by hand like in 19th century (as opposed to arithmetic understanding/intuition/modeling) has zero applications in professional and personal life? Isn't that obvious? When was the last time you did long division by hand? Or that mathematical modeling does have applications in both personal and professional life? Isn't it trivial to come up with numerous examples? Or that mathematical modeling is so important it deserves place in the curriculum? Now that would be hard to show, but I never claimed it does. I just said it is relatively more valuable than pen-and-paper arithmetic, which is obvious from above two points. Also, status quo does not get free pass. I imagine you would find it really difficult to defend pen-and-paper arithmetic, especially when everyone can see it's just bureaucratic inertia and technophobia.