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I love it when anything Caenorhabditis elegans (C. Elegans) related pops up because this little biological organism sits at this beautiful intersection between
by lukasday 3y ago
I love it when anything Caenorhabditis elegans (C. Elegans) related pops up because this little biological organism sits at this beautiful intersection between technology and biology and philosophy. The successful emulation of C. Elegans would represent a concrete step towards whole brain emulation and all the transhuman and ethical and moral quandaries that would bring. The general idea is that the human brain has billions of neurons, Elegans has hundreds (and we've had them mapped since 1986). If one can successfully "upload" Elegans, then humans are just a matter of scale.
However, it should be noted that the field, and specifically this line of research, hasn't produced much in the way of results in 10+ years. University of Oregon planned (though I can't tell if they ever developed) NemaSys[0] ~1997. OpenWorm has been exploring this since 2011. Project Nemaload explored it a bit from 2011-2013.[1] But each project ran into three problems:
- Knowing the connections isn't enough. We also need to know the weights and thresholds. We don't know how to read them from a living worm.[2]
- C. elegans is able to learn by changing the weights. We don't know how weights and thresholds are changed in a living worm.[2]
- Funding [3]
The best we can do is modeling a generic worm - pretraining and running the neural network with fixed weights. Thus, no worm is "uploaded" because we can't read the weights, and these simulations are far from realistic because they are not capable of learning. Hence, it's merely a boring artificial neural network, not a brain emulation. Relevant neural recording technologies are needed to collect data from living worms, but they remain undeveloped (but in progress?[4][5][6]), and the funding simply isn't there.
OpenWorm got the idea to plug their connectome into a Lego robot[7] and got it to exhibit the tap-withdrawal behavior of the nematode, but it had technical limitations preventing easy modification of the connectome or introduction of new models of neural dynamics. JHU Applied Physics Lab extended the work by using a basic integrate and fire model to simulate the neurons and assigned weights by determining the proportion to the total number of synapses the two neurons on either side of the synapses shared and in the end got the simulated worm to reverse direction when bumping into walls.[8] At this point, humanity seems to have abandoned emulated worm driven mechanisms which is honestly kind of a loss.
There's no real ending to this comment. Love this project, loves what it stands for, looking forward to seeing progress in this field. And a lot of this information was pulled from this blog post[9] which was also mentioned in the comments somewhere.
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20030115124331/http://www.csi.uoregon.edu/projects/celegans/ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115124331/http://www.csi.uo...
[1] https://github.com/nemaload https://github.com/nemaload
[2] https://www.jefftk.com/p/we-havent-uploaded-worms https://www.jefftk.com/p/we-havent-uploaded-worms
[3] https://www.quora.com/Is-Larry-Page-funding-any-neuroscience-mind-uploading-projects-besides-the-NEMALOAD-project https://www.quora.com/Is-Larry-Page-funding-any-neuroscience...
[4] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2109.10474.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2109.10474.pdf
[5] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cyto.a.24483 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cyto.a.24483
[6] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959438820301689 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095943882...
[7] https://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/tech/mci-lego-worm/ https://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/tech/mci-lego-worm/
[8] https://ccneuro.org/2018/proceedings/1149.pdf https://ccneuro.org/2018/proceedings/1149.pdf
[9] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mHqQxwKuzZS69CXX5/whole-brain-emulation-no-progress-on-c-elgans-after-10-years https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mHqQxwKuzZS69CXX5/whole-brai...
- Gordonjcp 3y agoWhat would a "real world" application of this be? Could I for example chuck a bunch of simulated worms onto a map and have it solve a route? "Given enough worms, all Travelling Salesman problems are shallow?"
- luc4sdreyer 3y agoWould you mind explaining the unstated premise that basic research should in any way should be directly applied to solve real world problems?
- Gordonjcp 3y agoWould you mind explaining why you think I said that?
- interhater 3y ago[flagged]
- chromanoid 3y agoThe real world application would be to understand how more complex nerve systems might work. Understanding enables progress.
- Gordonjcp 3y agoSure, but if you can get some sort of understandable result, we might learn a bit more about what the worm's neurons are doing.
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoI actually take this as a positive, they have uploaded a shell of a 'brain', and have identified the next problem, 'weights'. Why isn't what they have done so far be amazing enough to start tackling the next thing. I am surprised that with Neural Nets being such a hot bed, the amount of money pouring into AI, and NeuralLink type research, that they would have a hard time with funding. Watching that lego worm really zapped my brain, seemed like we were on the cusp of something. Maybe we still are, and just misjudged the time-scale on progress.