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> Belarus also demanded their nukes back, they never made any “Budapest Memorandum”. >> The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three substant

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> Belarus also demanded their nukes back, they never made any “Budapest Memorandum”. >> The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three substantially identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994, to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). What? they are literally one of three named states alongside Ukraine and Kazakhstan that willing signed up to the NPT and gave up their weapons in the Budapest Memorandum did you seriously never look this up?. > Why do you ignore the agency of Belarus, and conflate it with Russia building bases for PMCs in Belarus? Literally no one has ignored the agency of Belarus, the agency of Belarus is a straw man you keep creating to have something to set fire to. > Next, you conflate Donbas and Crimea. Russians had “little green men” in Crimea. They were allowed to have 25K troops there, according ti an agreement with Ukraine, but the “little green men” is just another red herring. They didn’t shoot or kill anyone. More lies as usual. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Simferopol_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Simferopol_incident Multiple people died in Crimea from these 'little green men'. As for the case of Dobass the Russians themselves admit it. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strel... > At the start of this summer, 90 percent of the rebel forces were made up of local residents, Strelkov was quoted as saying. However, by early August, Russian servicemen supposedly on "vacation" from the army had begun to arrive, he said. > According to Strelkov, the assault on the Black Sea town of Mariupol in September, which prompted concerns in Ukraine and the West that Russia has entered the conflict on a large scale, was conducted mostly by the Russian military "vacationers."

EGreg 3y ago
What I said is far closer to the truth than the picture you’re trying to paint. Antimaidan protests were organic and covered by many Western outlets. No green men. Donbas and Strelkov and Motorola are not the same as “little green men” in Crimea. Russia had the right to station up to 25K servicemen in Crimea. These or “green men” were also called “polite men” because it was widely reported that they didn’t do anything. The stats you cited are comparable to stuff that routinely happens in the US and other countries, NOT an armed invasion like in Iraq or Libya. Not even close. You try to conflate them to somehow make the case that “Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014” because you need it for a rhetorical chess move to “win” something — rather than intellectual honesty. Now, Russia did arm and train terrorists against the Ukraine government, and that was very destructive. I admit that and condemn them for it. I also put it context to say that, sadly, this happens all over the world, usually with CIA doing it, and if you really care about this phenomenon you should discuss it everywhere and not just this one case. Yes, that is exactly the spark that lights the fire of civil war and proxy war. That’s what we SHOULD focus on preventing, instead of blame games. And Russia is squarely at fault for training the rebels. But also others symmetrically. If USA didn’t train the other side then Minsk II would have been implemented long ago. The ONLY thing I will grant to the US which makes its training and arming more legitimate than Russia here is that it was helping the government of a sovereign country maintain control of a region. But in Syria it was the EXACT opposite with the sides switched, and you don’t have the consistently opposite analysis. USA is sither right all the time regardless of whether it trains militants against the government or for it, or perhaps you want to be consistent but just don’t bother? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-combat-volunteers-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-comb... As far as “vacationers”, um USA had PMCs in Iraq, all over the place for years, but claimed “no boots ok the ground” and “end of operations”. And by your standard, what do you call US army vets fighting in Ukraine right now? Are they “NATO boots on the ground”? I think Motorola and Strelkov are the analogue of Manuel Norriega. USA even had the School of the Americas to train people like that. What is the relevant difference? And once again I want to say IT IS BAD. My prescription is always: * Don’t train and arm terrorists * Don’t get involved 3000 miles away * Force public servants to engage in diplomacy before suthori
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > What I said is far closer to the truth than the picture you’re trying to paint. Sure, and the earth is flat too. > Donbas and Strelkov and Motorola are not the same as “little green men” in Crimea. No, but they were both in Donbass, both Russian soldiers or intelligence officers and at least Strelkov admits that real Russian soldiers were in Donbass in 2014. > he stats you cited are comparable to stuff that routinely happens in the US and other countries, NOT an armed invasion like in Iraq or Libya. Not even close. Yeah but your claim wasn't about an armed invasion it was literally this. >> > Next, you conflate Donbas and Crimea. Russians had “little green men” in Crimea. They were allowed to have 25K troops there, according ti an agreement with Ukraine, but the “little green men” is just another red herring. They didn’t shoot or kill anyone. This isn't true, they did shoot and kill people. > That’s what we SHOULD focus on preventing, instead of blame games. We should and as Russia has made it clear the only way to prevent Russian aggression is a boot on their neck or a rope around their throat. So we have to arm Ukraine enough to make Russia withdraw. > As far as “vacationers”, um USA had PMCs in Iraq, all over the place for years, but claimed “no boots ok the ground” and “end of operations”. And by your standard, what do you call US army vets fighting in Ukraine right now? Are they “NATO boots on the ground”? These weren't PMC's they where active duty Russian solders in Ukraine on "vacation". There are no active duty foreign nationals taking part in the Ukraine conflict on the Ukrainian side. Theres only veterans who are no longer part of foreign armies. I just wonder if you are ever going to respond with out trying to include an example of America doing the same thing in every single paragraph. In fact in these threads about Russia, and Russian aggression in Ukraine you talk a lot more about American then Russia.
EGreg 3y ago
What I said is far closer to the truth than the picture you’re trying to paint. Antimaidan protests were organic and covered by many Western outlets. No green men. Donbas and Strelkov and Motorola are not the same as “little green men” in Crimea. Russia had the right to station up to 25K servicemen in Crimea. These or “green men” were also called “polite men” because it was widely reported that they didn’t do anything. The stats you cited are comparable to stuff that routinely happens in the US and other countries, NOT an armed invasion like in Iraq or Libya. Not even close. You try to conflate them to somehow make the case that “Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014” because you need it for a rhetorical chess move to “win” something — rather than intellectual honesty. Now, Russia did arm and train terrorists against the Ukraine government, and that was very destructive. I admit that and condemn them for it. I also put it context to say that, sadly, this happens all over the world, usually with CIA doing it, and if you really care about this phenomenon you should discuss it everywhere and not just this one case. Yes, that is exactly the spark that lights the fire of civil war and proxy war. That’s what we SHOULD focus on preventing, instead of blame games. And Russia is squarely at fault for training the rebels. But also others symmetrically. If USA didn’t train the other side then Minsk II would have been implemented long ago. The ONLY thing I will grant to the US which makes its training and arming more legitimate than Russia here is that it was helping the government of a sovereign country maintain control of a region. But in Syria it was the EXACT opposite with the sides switched, and you don’t have the consistently opposite analysis. USA is sither right all the time regardless of whether it trains militants against the government or for it, or perhaps you want to be consistent but just don’t bother? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-combat-volunteers-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-comb... As far as “vacationers”, um USA had PMCs in Iraq, all over the place for years, but claimed “no boots ok the ground” and “end of operations”. And by your standard, what do you call US army vets fighting in Ukraine right now? Are they “NATO boots on the ground”? I think Motorola and Strelkov are the analogue of Manuel Norriega. USA even had the School of the Americas to train people like that. What is the relevant difference? And once again I want to say IT IS BAD. My prescription is always: * Don’t train and arm terrorists * Don’t get involved 3000 miles away * Force public servants to engage in diplomacy before authorizing any violent operations * Force all meeting between politicians to be on video * Favor electing people who tend towards deescalation You are so caught up in the blame game that you spend nearly no time discussing the SOLUTIONS I propose, which are universal for people of all nations to demand. Your “solution” is to keep volunteering people 3000 miles away to die in yet another “forever war” until a fantasy scenario plays out, or — more realistically - new politicians are votes in and everyone forgets and moves on from “the latest thing”.

by _kbh_ 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

What I said is far closer to the truth than the picture you’re trying to paint. Antimaidan protests were organic and covered by many Western outlets. No green men. Donbas and Strelkov and Motorola are not the same as “little green men” in Crimea. Russia had the right to station up to 25K servicemen in Crimea. These or “green men” were also called “polite men” because it was widely reported that they didn’t do anything. The stats you cited are comparable to stuff that routinely happens in the US and other countries, NOT an armed invasion like in Iraq or Libya. Not even close. You try to conflate them to somehow make the case that “Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014” because you need it for a rhetorical chess move to “win” something — rather than intellectual honesty. Now, Russia did arm and train terrorists against the Ukraine government, and that was very destructive. I admit that and condemn them for it. I also put it context to say that, sadly, this happens all over the world, usually with CIA doing it, and if you really care about this phenomenon you should discuss it everywhere and not just this one case. Yes, that is exactly the spark that lights the fire of civil war and proxy war. That’s what we SHOULD focus on preventing, instead of blame games. And Russia is squarely at fault for training the rebels. But also others symmetrically. If USA didn’t train the other side then Minsk II would have been implemented long ago. The ONLY thing I will grant to the US which makes its training and arming more legitimate than Russia here is that it was helping the government of a sovereign country maintain control of a region. But in Syria it was the EXACT opposite with the sides switched, and you don’t have the consistently opposite analysis. USA is sither right all the time regardless of whether it trains militants against the government or for it, or perhaps you want to be consistent but just don’t bother? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-combat-volunteers-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/us/politics/american-comb... As far as “vacationers”, um USA had PMCs in Iraq, all over the place for years, but claimed “no boots ok the ground” and “end of operations”. And by your standard, what do you call US army vets fighting in Ukraine right now? Are they “NATO boots on the ground”? I think Motorola and Strelkov are the analogue of Manuel Norriega. USA even had the School of the Americas to train people like that. What is the relevant difference? And once again I want to say IT IS BAD. My prescription is always: * Don’t train and arm terrorists * Don’t get involved 3000 miles away * Force public servants to engage in diplomacy before suthori

_kbh_ 3y ago
> What I said is far closer to the truth than the picture you’re trying to paint. Sure, and the earth is flat too. > Donbas and Strelkov and Motorola are not the same as “little green men” in Crimea. No, but they were both in Donbass, both Russian soldiers or intelligence officers and at least Strelkov admits that real Russian soldiers were in Donbass in 2014. > he stats you cited are comparable to stuff that routinely happens in the US and other countries, NOT an armed invasion like in Iraq or Libya. Not even close. Yeah but your claim wasn't about an armed invasion it was literally this. >> > Next, you conflate Donbas and Crimea. Russians had “little green men” in Crimea. They were allowed to have 25K troops there, according ti an agreement with Ukraine, but the “little green men” is just another red herring. They didn’t shoot or kill anyone. This isn't true, they did shoot and kill people. > That’s what we SHOULD focus on preventing, instead of blame games. We should and as Russia has made it clear the only way to prevent Russian aggression is a boot on their neck or a rope around their throat. So we have to arm Ukraine enough to make Russia withdraw. > As far as “vacationers”, um USA had PMCs in Iraq, all over the place for years, but claimed “no boots ok the ground” and “end of operations”. And by your standard, what do you call US army vets fighting in Ukraine right now? Are they “NATO boots on the ground”? These weren't PMC's they where active duty Russian solders in Ukraine on "vacation". There are no active duty foreign nationals taking part in the Ukraine conflict on the Ukrainian side. Theres only veterans who are no longer part of foreign armies. I just wonder if you are ever going to respond with out trying to include an example of America doing the same thing in every single paragraph. In fact in these threads about Russia, and Russian aggression in Ukraine you talk a lot more about American then Russia.

EGreg 3y ago