6 ms·

I don't understand why many people are upset about their building's facade being photographed, but are totally fine with satellite images. Or cameras getting in

I don't understand why many people are upset about their building's facade being photographed, but are totally fine with satellite images. Or cameras getting installed everywhere and the European Union trying to get into people's phones for "security". At one point there was a debate against encryption because bad guys could benefit from it...

rightbyte 3y ago
Google has access to the pictures without the blur of faces and car plates and what not. It is very reasonable to not want a spyware company to roam your streets and record it.
worklaptopacct 3y ago
I think it's a uniquely German problem, because nowhere else in the EU did Google have to blur buildings. Having immigrated to Germany I can tell that Germans are pretty much privacy-obsessed, with strict regulations on CCTV (you will get in trouble if your camera points to the street) and hardly anyone having a social media account.
- Semaphor 3y ago
  > hardly anyone having a social media account. Not my experience at all. We are also often only privacy-obsessed, when there are big news articles about it.
  - elminjo 3y ago
    I live in Berlin, and I have only one friend who has a Facebook account but doesn't even use it.
    - corgihamlet 3y ago
      But they probably all use Instagram.
      - expertentipp 3y ago
        Instagram is for DUMB people! Let's catch up on WhatsApp.
- politelemon 3y ago
  Not my observation. They aren't as privacy obsessed as it's made out to be, only when there's a big fuss made out of something. There's still heavy social media use which completely contradicts the privacy focus.
- unmole 3y ago
  > and hardly anyone having a social media account Bullshit. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-based-on-number-of-facebook-users/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-... ~30% of the population has a Facebook account.
- tsbischof 3y ago
  And yet it is one of the few places where it is mandatory to have your name on the publicly-facing postbox in order for mail to arrive. The privacy sentiment here is all over the place.
  - worklaptopacct 3y ago
    Another thing is the legal requirement to put your full name and home address on any website you own privately. Everyone I ask about this contradiction is like "Well it is like it is, so it probably has to be like that"
  - expertentipp 3y ago
    Yet the courier will never be able to find your surname, and the TV license scum will hound you regardless of the label on the postbox.
- tecleandor 3y ago
  The CCTV thing is general to the EU due to the GDPR. It happens in Spain too, for example.
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  They have to in France, on request.
cyclecount 3y ago
Who is this hypothetical person who is upset with some types of surveillance and not others? I would imagine many Germans feel (like I do) equally uncomfortable with Street View, satellite image databases, widespread CCTV cameras in cities, etc.
seydor 3y ago
Germans have a thing for americans, and they are often enforcing their standards to the rest of EU
onion2k 3y ago
There's a quite significant event in Germany's history where the government abused data about it's citizens in a horrific way. They clearly learned a lesson from that.
- ushakov 3y ago
  Which event are you referring to?
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    WW2, for example to round up the Jews. Much easier to do if you have accurate records. It's more than a stretch to extend that to today's reality.
- monomers 3y ago
  The state keeps collecting all the data it wants, though. For example, you are mandated to declare where you live and what your religion is. Germany only takes privacy seriously when it comes to private companies.
  - onion2k 3y ago
    The state keeps collecting all the data it wants, though. No, it really doesn't. The state always wants far more data than it collects. It's usually limited to what it actually needs. For example, the state has no reason to build it's own version of Streetview, so it doesn't, but you can be sure that someone in government would love unfettered access to all the data Google collects like the raw photos, details of wifi networks, etc (and in many countries Google probably gives them have exactly that). If another truly evil government arises and seeks to wipeout vast numbers of their citizens, you can be absolutely certain one of the first things they'll do is to augment the data they already have with the data that's collected by private companies. For Germany to fight against the collection of that data, and to try to limit who can access that data by paying or coercing Google, is very sensible.
    - 3y ago
Barrin92 3y ago
That person doesn't really exist, at least not in Germany which this is about. The issue was never just Street View. Ubiquitous surveillance has been a topic for a long time, in German fashion we invented a phrase for it, "Gläserner Bürger", literally a 'glass citizen'. It's no accident we're a huge outlier when it comes to cash payments as well, people like their anonymity. As for the encryption debate, the difference is that it is literally that, a democratic debate. There's still a difference here between trade-offs being made for national security or policing, and private firms just running circles around you to make more dollars. The latter will always cause more anger.
- unmole 3y ago
  Credit card penetration in Germany is ~60%. Compared to ~15% in Poland. eCommerce penetration is ~77%. Presumably that doesn't involve mailing in wads of cash.
  - PurpleRamen 3y ago
    Credit card penetration doesn't say much in a country where banks are giving them out for free. Usage rate is quite different from penetration rate.
  - okanat 3y ago
    In Germany much of the eCommerce is still made using wire-transfers not credit cards.
    - unmole 3y ago
      So, the context was about the use of cash because of supposed privacy consciousness. Do wire transfers confer any privacy over credit or debit cards?
      - pchangr 3y ago
        No intermediary (visa).
serial_dev 3y ago
You treat the whole EU as if it was one single person. You heard different news over the years, but they are from different fractions of the EU and Germany. Yes, there are weasel politicians who will jump at the opportunity to give more power to themselves and big corporations even if a poor right wing factory worker in East Germany hates big tech surveillance. Yes, you'll find people who prefer the convenience of G Street View and are willing to give up some of their privacy for that. But there will be people who see this as one more concession to the surveillance state, so they will fight it. Give an inch and they'll take a mile. Germans remember this from Nazi Germany, WW2, and the mass surveillance of East Germany (and some now have even more paranoia after the COVID lockdowns). So no, I don't think you'll have too many people who are seriously upset about Google "scanning" the whole country but are happy about having cameras everywhere and governments installing spyware onto our phones.
expertentipp 3y ago
Sir this is Hacker News. You need to convince German real estate owner class.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
> are totally fine with satellite images. Satellite images won't show private areas. It's even hard to tell anything significant about the area besides that something is there. > Or cameras getting installed everywhere They follow privacy laws, don't record private areas, and are not public accessible. There are also generally less security cameras in Germany than in similar countries AFAIK.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  > Satellite images won't show private areas. It's even hard to tell anything significant about the area besides that something is there. Nowadays 15 cm (pan-sharpened from 30cm) commercial imagery of 100% of German land is readily available to any buyer who has the money. And there is even better imagery available to the major intelligence agencies. So 100% of private areas in Germany, viewable from above, are already under observation 24/7 to a resolution capable of distinguishing chairs from people from dogs from umbrellas, etc...
pintxo 3y ago
If I had to guess, for Germany, you have basically two groups opposing it vocally, the die-hard privacy advocates (<5%) and the "inter-what?" group which does not understand how the internet, let alone how street-view, works (~20%). Latter group actually argued that street-view would be used by burglars to identify possible targets in real-time. I recall on of these i***** to propose German police to patrol street-view! With the large majority being neutral/positive on the topic, but not motivated to argue publicly against the other two groups. And so, again, the fringes win.

rightbyte 3y ago

Google has access to the pictures without the blur of faces and car plates and what not. It is very reasonable to not want a spyware company to roam your streets and record it.

worklaptopacct 3y ago

I think it's a uniquely German problem, because nowhere else in the EU did Google have to blur buildings. Having immigrated to Germany I can tell that Germans are pretty much privacy-obsessed, with strict regulations on CCTV (you will get in trouble if your camera points to the street) and hardly anyone having a social media account.

Semaphor 3y ago
> hardly anyone having a social media account. Not my experience at all. We are also often only privacy-obsessed, when there are big news articles about it.
- elminjo 3y ago
  I live in Berlin, and I have only one friend who has a Facebook account but doesn't even use it.
  - corgihamlet 3y ago
    But they probably all use Instagram.
    - expertentipp 3y ago
      Instagram is for DUMB people! Let's catch up on WhatsApp.
politelemon 3y ago
Not my observation. They aren't as privacy obsessed as it's made out to be, only when there's a big fuss made out of something. There's still heavy social media use which completely contradicts the privacy focus.
unmole 3y ago
> and hardly anyone having a social media account Bullshit. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-based-on-number-of-facebook-users/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-... ~30% of the population has a Facebook account.
tsbischof 3y ago
And yet it is one of the few places where it is mandatory to have your name on the publicly-facing postbox in order for mail to arrive. The privacy sentiment here is all over the place.
- worklaptopacct 3y ago
  Another thing is the legal requirement to put your full name and home address on any website you own privately. Everyone I ask about this contradiction is like "Well it is like it is, so it probably has to be like that"
- expertentipp 3y ago
  Yet the courier will never be able to find your surname, and the TV license scum will hound you regardless of the label on the postbox.
tecleandor 3y ago
The CCTV thing is general to the EU due to the GDPR. It happens in Spain too, for example.
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
They have to in France, on request.

cyclecount 3y ago

Who is this hypothetical person who is upset with some types of surveillance and not others? I would imagine many Germans feel (like I do) equally uncomfortable with Street View, satellite image databases, widespread CCTV cameras in cities, etc.

seydor 3y ago

Germans have a thing for americans, and they are often enforcing their standards to the rest of EU

onion2k 3y ago

There's a quite significant event in Germany's history where the government abused data about it's citizens in a horrific way. They clearly learned a lesson from that.

ushakov 3y ago
Which event are you referring to?
- H8crilA 3y ago
  WW2, for example to round up the Jews. Much easier to do if you have accurate records. It's more than a stretch to extend that to today's reality.
monomers 3y ago
The state keeps collecting all the data it wants, though. For example, you are mandated to declare where you live and what your religion is. Germany only takes privacy seriously when it comes to private companies.
- onion2k 3y ago
  The state keeps collecting all the data it wants, though. No, it really doesn't. The state always wants far more data than it collects. It's usually limited to what it actually needs. For example, the state has no reason to build it's own version of Streetview, so it doesn't, but you can be sure that someone in government would love unfettered access to all the data Google collects like the raw photos, details of wifi networks, etc (and in many countries Google probably gives them have exactly that). If another truly evil government arises and seeks to wipeout vast numbers of their citizens, you can be absolutely certain one of the first things they'll do is to augment the data they already have with the data that's collected by private companies. For Germany to fight against the collection of that data, and to try to limit who can access that data by paying or coercing Google, is very sensible.
  - 3y ago

Barrin92 3y ago

That person doesn't really exist, at least not in Germany which this is about. The issue was never just Street View. Ubiquitous surveillance has been a topic for a long time, in German fashion we invented a phrase for it, "Gläserner Bürger", literally a 'glass citizen'. It's no accident we're a huge outlier when it comes to cash payments as well, people like their anonymity. As for the encryption debate, the difference is that it is literally that, a democratic debate. There's still a difference here between trade-offs being made for national security or policing, and private firms just running circles around you to make more dollars. The latter will always cause more anger.

unmole 3y ago
Credit card penetration in Germany is ~60%. Compared to ~15% in Poland. eCommerce penetration is ~77%. Presumably that doesn't involve mailing in wads of cash.
- PurpleRamen 3y ago
  Credit card penetration doesn't say much in a country where banks are giving them out for free. Usage rate is quite different from penetration rate.
- okanat 3y ago
  In Germany much of the eCommerce is still made using wire-transfers not credit cards.
  - unmole 3y ago
    So, the context was about the use of cash because of supposed privacy consciousness. Do wire transfers confer any privacy over credit or debit cards?
    - pchangr 3y ago
      No intermediary (visa).

serial_dev 3y ago

You treat the whole EU as if it was one single person. You heard different news over the years, but they are from different fractions of the EU and Germany. Yes, there are weasel politicians who will jump at the opportunity to give more power to themselves and big corporations even if a poor right wing factory worker in East Germany hates big tech surveillance. Yes, you'll find people who prefer the convenience of G Street View and are willing to give up some of their privacy for that. But there will be people who see this as one more concession to the surveillance state, so they will fight it. Give an inch and they'll take a mile. Germans remember this from Nazi Germany, WW2, and the mass surveillance of East Germany (and some now have even more paranoia after the COVID lockdowns). So no, I don't think you'll have too many people who are seriously upset about Google "scanning" the whole country but are happy about having cameras everywhere and governments installing spyware onto our phones.

expertentipp 3y ago

Sir this is Hacker News. You need to convince German real estate owner class.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

> are totally fine with satellite images. Satellite images won't show private areas. It's even hard to tell anything significant about the area besides that something is there. > Or cameras getting installed everywhere They follow privacy laws, don't record private areas, and are not public accessible. There are also generally less security cameras in Germany than in similar countries AFAIK.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
> Satellite images won't show private areas. It's even hard to tell anything significant about the area besides that something is there. Nowadays 15 cm (pan-sharpened from 30cm) commercial imagery of 100% of German land is readily available to any buyer who has the money. And there is even better imagery available to the major intelligence agencies. So 100% of private areas in Germany, viewable from above, are already under observation 24/7 to a resolution capable of distinguishing chairs from people from dogs from umbrellas, etc...

pintxo 3y ago

If I had to guess, for Germany, you have basically two groups opposing it vocally, the die-hard privacy advocates (<5%) and the "inter-what?" group which does not understand how the internet, let alone how street-view, works (~20%). Latter group actually argued that street-view would be used by burglars to identify possible targets in real-time. I recall on of these i***** to propose German police to patrol street-view! With the large majority being neutral/positive on the topic, but not motivated to argue publicly against the other two groups. And so, again, the fringes win.