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Biden Weighs Giving Ukraine Weapons Banned by Many U.S. Allies

10 points by Jimmc414 3y ago

secondary_op 3y ago
> When asked whether the Pentagon has assured its allies that these munitions will not cause excessive civilian harm, US Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl replied: > “I’m as concerned about the humanitarian circumstance as anybody, but the worst thing for civilians in Ukraine is for Russia to win the war. And so it’s important that they don’t.” ‘Russian victory’ worse than civilian cluster bomb deaths.
- lisasays 3y ago
  ‘Russian victory’ worse than civilian cluster bomb deaths. I think we let the Ukrainians make that call. They're the ones already getting killed and maimed in far greater numbers (and far away from the front lines) than are to be feared from the cluster munitions.
- bitsinthesky 3y ago
  There's a reason they're fighting a war that has already killed tens of thousands and displaced millions. This is a random article comes to mind, but is just one piece of many. Russian suppression and oppression is brutal, for those who know about it. https://neweasterneurope.eu/2023/03/20/45000-body-bags/ https://neweasterneurope.eu/2023/03/20/45000-body-bags/
andrewstuart 3y ago
Cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells, biological weapons, heck send the nukes! To some people, victory is all that matters.
Jimmc414 3y ago
https://archive.is/ZbMLy https://archive.is/ZbMLy
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melling 3y ago
To be clear Russia is already using cluster munitions in Ukraine. They are banned because many have a dud rate which means civilians can be hurt by unexploded ordnance.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  I just don't believe any reports like this. I wouldn't be surprised that either party used cluster munitions of course. But the US and UK used cluster bombs in Iraq too, so why even pretend that there needs to be an "excuse"?
- failTide 3y ago
  > To be clear Russia is already using cluster munitions in Ukraine. I'm not sure what your point is. Are you implying it's justified because Russia is using them?
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > I'm not sure what your point is. Are you implying it's justified because Russia is using them? What I think they are saying is there no reason to get worked up over cluster munitions in Ukraine because they already are. The main difference between the cluster bombs given to Ukraine and the ones fired by Russia, is the Russian ones are much more likely to have landed in populated civilian areas.
    - more_corn 3y ago
      Pretty sure your opponent committing war crimes doesn’t mean you get a free pass to commit war crimes.
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > Pretty sure your opponent committing war crimes doesn’t mean you get a free pass to commit war crimes. Using cluster munitions is not a war crime. Intentionally targeting civilians with cluster munitions on the other hand is. I don't think Ukraine is going to intentionally target their own civilians with cluster munitions.

10 points by Jimmc414 3y ago

> When asked whether the Pentagon has assured its allies that these munitions will not cause excessive civilian harm, US Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl replied: > “I’m as concerned about the humanitarian circumstance as anybody, but the worst thing for civilians in Ukraine is for Russia to win the war. And so it’s important that they don’t.” ‘Russian victory’ worse than civilian cluster bomb deaths.

lisasays 3y ago
‘Russian victory’ worse than civilian cluster bomb deaths. I think we let the Ukrainians make that call. They're the ones already getting killed and maimed in far greater numbers (and far away from the front lines) than are to be feared from the cluster munitions.
bitsinthesky 3y ago
There's a reason they're fighting a war that has already killed tens of thousands and displaced millions. This is a random article comes to mind, but is just one piece of many. Russian suppression and oppression is brutal, for those who know about it. https://neweasterneurope.eu/2023/03/20/45000-body-bags/ https://neweasterneurope.eu/2023/03/20/45000-body-bags/

andrewstuart 3y ago

Cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells, biological weapons, heck send the nukes! To some people, victory is all that matters.

Jimmc414 3y ago

https://archive.is/ZbMLy https://archive.is/ZbMLy

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melling 3y ago

To be clear Russia is already using cluster munitions in Ukraine. They are banned because many have a dud rate which means civilians can be hurt by unexploded ordnance.

raxxorraxor 3y ago
I just don't believe any reports like this. I wouldn't be surprised that either party used cluster munitions of course. But the US and UK used cluster bombs in Iraq too, so why even pretend that there needs to be an "excuse"?
failTide 3y ago
> To be clear Russia is already using cluster munitions in Ukraine. I'm not sure what your point is. Are you implying it's justified because Russia is using them?
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I'm not sure what your point is. Are you implying it's justified because Russia is using them? What I think they are saying is there no reason to get worked up over cluster munitions in Ukraine because they already are. The main difference between the cluster bombs given to Ukraine and the ones fired by Russia, is the Russian ones are much more likely to have landed in populated civilian areas.
  - more_corn 3y ago
    Pretty sure your opponent committing war crimes doesn’t mean you get a free pass to commit war crimes.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > Pretty sure your opponent committing war crimes doesn’t mean you get a free pass to commit war crimes. Using cluster munitions is not a war crime. Intentionally targeting civilians with cluster munitions on the other hand is. I don't think Ukraine is going to intentionally target their own civilians with cluster munitions.