5 ms·

Why Is the U.S. So Good at Killing Pedestrians?

63 points by snthd 3y ago

retrocryptid 3y ago
Ya gotta have a hobby, I suppose.
IgorPartola 3y ago
Big fast moving vehicles, shitty roads, very basic driver’s ed, speed limits that are too low to be realistic so they are poorly enforced, drinking and driving is common.
- caditinpiscinam 3y ago
  Don't forget the big one: phones. So many people here drive with their phone in their hand.
  - sparrish 3y ago
    And so many pedestrians walk with their face in their phones.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Other countries saw the same uptick in smartphones without the same huge uptick in pedestrian deaths, though. In charts: https://streets.mn/2020/10/14/chart-of-the-day-pedestrian-fatalities-per-capita-us-v-others/ https://streets.mn/2020/10/14/chart-of-the-day-pedestrian-fa... https://cityobservatory.org/why-are-us-drivers-killing-so-many-pedestrians/ https://cityobservatory.org/why-are-us-drivers-killing-so-ma...
    - caditinpiscinam 3y ago
      My guess would be that drivers in other countries are less likely to use their phones while driving, but I don't have any data to back that up
      - soramimo 3y ago
        German here living on the US. This matches my observation. I believe this is because of enforcement. It seems extremely rare to be fined for using the phone while driving in the US (LA at least), while it's common in Germany.
version_five 3y ago
These articles should be flagged, it's like catnip to subset of HN and always ends up in the same boring discussion. It's no different than other political or constantly rehashed topics.
- 2h 3y ago
  [flagged]
- caditinpiscinam 3y ago
  If a political, technological, and social issue is resulting in tons of people being killed, you'd expect it come up in a forum for discussing policy, technology, and society.
partiallypro 3y ago
In Europe it is very common to have something outside the speed limit that makes someone slow down, and I don't mean speed bumps. They will plant trees along the road in slower areas which give the feeling that the road has narrowed (for example) and you feel like you need to slow down because they shoulder basically no longer exists. I find that very interesting. The US is just behind on road design, stuck in the 1950s. Civil engineers and road designers need to change the way they think about designing roads to actually take pedestrians into consideration. The way we set speed limits is pretty comical too.
- cheriot 3y ago
  I can't upvote this enough. People drive as fast as they can while feeling comfortable. Road design controls the outcome and the US will reduce a 6 second delay for drivers at the cost of pedestrian lives.
calt 3y ago
One thing I've been noticing more and more since Not Just Bikes pointed it out is the shape of truck hoods. I've gone over the hood of a Honda Odyssey minivan. It wasn't fun, but I walked away because I rolled over the sloped shape and off the side. I look at the big flat intimidating front grills of modern trucks as I ride my bike around town everyday, and it's very terrifying. There's legislation around the shape of car hoods that make such things illegal, but trucks are exempt because they were viewed as "working vehicles" at the time the laws were written. Your personal truck is not a working vehicle. You think it's sexy and strong looking. I think it's terrorism. Stop making and buying these monstrosities.
- 2h 3y ago
  correct. how the fuck are you supposed to roll over this: https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_silverado-1500_crew-cab-pickup_high-country_fq_oem_1_1600.jpg https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/...
- throw0101a 3y ago
  > One thing I've been noticing more and more since Not Just Bikes pointed it out is the shape of truck hoods. An M1A1 Abrams tank actually has better forward visibility than some pick-up trucks (and Peterbilt semi-tractors are about equivalent): * https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/13r9x4w/semi_truck_has_better_visibility_than_a_suburban/ https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/13r9x4w/semi_truc... Also pick-up trucks are about as long as WW2 tanks (M4, Panzer IV, T-34): * https://www.motorbiscuit.com/american-trucks-suvs-almost-bigger-world-war-ii-tanks/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/american-trucks-suvs-almost-big...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Karrot_Kream 3y ago
* Lack of pedestrian safety standards for cars unlike the EU. Exacerbated by the increasing prevalence of SUVs which automakers receive higher margins on due to a loophole in CAFE fuel efficiency standards. * Very lax licensing standards (easy exams, high tolerance for bad behavior, high BAC limits, etc) due to the sheer necessity of driving due to reliance on auto-oriented design. * Decades of policy designed to increase LOS for vehicles which results in roads that are much wider, larger, much more expensive, and designed to carry much higher throughput than equivalent roads in other countries. * Speed limits set to 85-percentile of vehicle speed along roads, coupled with high LOS on roads leading to high speed limits in places there shouldn't be. * Uneven and very lightweight traffic enforcement due to the prevalence of driving and the impacts of not being able to drive on the general public. * Resistance to traffic calming measures by local governments and planners obsessed with vehicle LOS resulting in unsafe streets for non-car users.
caseyohara 3y ago
I listened to this podcast earlier today, very interesting. They interview a researcher at University of Utah who studies distracted driving. The ergonomics and related distraction factors of In-vehicle Information Systems (IVIS) are fascinating from a UI perspective. Unsurprisingly, tactile/physical controls are much less distracting than voice controls or virtual controls like touchscreens. Part of the reason is because physical controls are faster and more precise to modulate, so your brain is distracted for less time while doing something like adjusting the temperature with a physical knob.
j_walter 3y ago
Because many people in the US believe laws will protect them...walk out in a road and cars are supposed to stop for you. If they don't...you die. Pedestrians have the most to lose, but act very casually about walking so close to where cars are driving at high speeds. In the closest major city to me (Portland) the major increase in pedestrian deaths has come from the homeless population. No good statistics on why, but drugs were decriminalized a few years ago and there are suspicions that has something to do with it, but the data is not easily reviewed. Also, some major cities (like Portland) reduced normal traffic patrols that would help to curb speeding and reckless driving. https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/03/70-percent-pedestrians-hit-cars-portland-were-experiencing-homelessness/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/03/70-percent-pedestrian...
- joncp 3y ago
  I’ve noticed the same in Seattle. There’s also a more “I dare you to hit me” attitude in a lot of my fellow pedestrians than in other cities I’ve lived in. I’m sure that has at least something to do with it too.
  - retrocryptid 3y ago
    That doesn't work with busses, however. Bus drivers here seem much more brazen than other cities I've seen.
- calt 3y ago
  This is victim blaming, plain and simple. Why are people ever forced to be close to high speed traffic? The likelihood of dying goes up very quickly as vehicle speed goes up. It is possible to design livable cities where screwing up doesn’t cost you your life.
  - j_walter 3y ago
    People aren't forced, they make bad decisions. The homeless in Portland often choose to camp near major freeways and cross them regularly. By near, I mean directly next to (like between the offramp and the freeway). The city isn't allowed to or chooses not to remove these people in unsafe areas and when they do things to dissuade camping next to freeways they are cast as terrible people for hating the homeless. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/man-killed-car-hits-tent-portland-offramp/283-8645dfc6-863b-453b-871e-7c31caed156b https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/man-killed-c... Driver was DUI, but was later found not guilty because they suspected even a sober person would not have been reasonably able to avoid hitting this woman crossing a major freeway in a bad area at night. https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/09/homeless-woman-dies-after-dashing-across-highway-26-in-portland-family-settles-for-305000.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/09/homeless-woman-dies-... Portland city council member slams department of transportation for putting up rocks near freeways to deter camping https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/commissioner-hardesty-slams-odot-over-using-boulder-fields-to-displace-homeless-campers/283-e7c4c478-6a83-49c8-9a3a-4b1eb5c39625 https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/commissioner...
ronnier 3y ago
I operate from a different perspective when walking in that I assume cars are not stopping for me, they don't see me, and they have the right of way. I see many people blindly walking across streets when the walk signal goes green, they don't even look. There's too many inattentive drivers and texting drivers to depend on them to do the right thing.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  Same, but it's hard to go running that way. Run 100 feet, stop look for cars, run 100 feet, stop look for cars, is a bad workout.
- Bukhmanizer 3y ago
  I guarantee you’re not as safe as you think you are unless you literally never walk anywhere. Drivers illegally tint their windows so you can’t see them. Some can be staring literally right at you while stopped at a stop sign and not see you. The sidewalk isn’t even that safe, I see big trucks accidentally jump the curb and ride on the sidewalk pretty regularly.
- soupfordummies 3y ago
  Ah, defensive... walking. Nice! My dad gave me a good bit of advice when learning to drive, which is also a good distillation of defensive driving in a nutshell: assume the other driver is about to do something stupid. Usually you don't even have to ASSUME in Atlanta, unfortunately.
cheriot 3y ago
Why is this article [flagged]? It's not a duplicate and from a more respected source than most things on HN
- hytdstd 3y ago
  My guess: people dislike critical discussion about the things they enjoy.
  - retrocryptid 3y ago
    Are you suggesting the technorati enjoy running over pedestrians?
    - Fricken 3y ago
      It's an acceptable risk
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - hytdstd 3y ago
      No, they may not explicitly enjoy it, yet they likely appreciate the ease the automobile-focused society brings, even though it contributes to around 7000 pedestrian fatalities annually. Anyone rational would view such preventable loss of life as disastrous. However, the solutions — improved street layouts, less wide roads, use of speed cameras and so on — are often deemed so unpalatable that it prompts a flag on the article. It appears as though a number of readers here don't find 7000 annual deaths significant enough.
    - cheriot 3y ago
      Much of car culture and related land use decisions are rooted in class and race. I wouldn't say enjoy, but it's a requirement for many.
  - snoooowflakes 3y ago
hindsightbias 3y ago
What is the per capita rate adjusted for vehicle weight and miles driven?
- calt 3y ago
  I would find the deaths per miles walked to be even more interesting. We drive a lot so that number would be low, but if we’re dying quite a lot for how little we walk, that would be extremely telling of how bad the problem is.
- smtpete 3y ago
  Based on us distance data from https://www.bts.gov/content/us-passenger-miles https://www.bts.gov/content/us-passenger-miles, europe distance data from and death rates from https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813435 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... for US, https://www.statista.com/statistics/1331134/road-traffic-fatalities-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1331134/road-traffic-fat... for germany, and https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240414/fatalities-in-traffic-accidents-in-norway/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240414/fatalities-in-tr... for norway It looks like in 2021 the death rate per km driven: US is 42,939deaths/5,349,230 million miles = 0.0050 deaths per million km Germany (2020) 2,719 deaths/718056 million kilometers = 0.0039 deaths per million km Norway 80 deaths/68232 million kilometers = 0.0012 deaths per million km It certainly looks better for the US than it does when looking at deaths per capita, or deaths per vehicle. Though US still looks bad. You could argue US driving way more per capita is might also be due to bad design that makes for more traffic deaths
  - hindsightbias 3y ago
    Thx for the research. Presumably most pedestrian deaths are urban and cities with European densities here have high rates so still bad design.
garbagecoder 3y ago
America bad.

63 points by snthd 3y ago

Ya gotta have a hobby, I suppose.

Big fast moving vehicles, shitty roads, very basic driver’s ed, speed limits that are too low to be realistic so they are poorly enforced, drinking and driving is common.

caditinpiscinam 3y ago
Don't forget the big one: phones. So many people here drive with their phone in their hand.
- sparrish 3y ago
  And so many pedestrians walk with their face in their phones.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Other countries saw the same uptick in smartphones without the same huge uptick in pedestrian deaths, though. In charts: https://streets.mn/2020/10/14/chart-of-the-day-pedestrian-fatalities-per-capita-us-v-others/ https://streets.mn/2020/10/14/chart-of-the-day-pedestrian-fa... https://cityobservatory.org/why-are-us-drivers-killing-so-many-pedestrians/ https://cityobservatory.org/why-are-us-drivers-killing-so-ma...
  - caditinpiscinam 3y ago
    My guess would be that drivers in other countries are less likely to use their phones while driving, but I don't have any data to back that up
    - soramimo 3y ago
      German here living on the US. This matches my observation. I believe this is because of enforcement. It seems extremely rare to be fined for using the phone while driving in the US (LA at least), while it's common in Germany.

version_five 3y ago

These articles should be flagged, it's like catnip to subset of HN and always ends up in the same boring discussion. It's no different than other political or constantly rehashed topics.

2h 3y ago
[flagged]
caditinpiscinam 3y ago
If a political, technological, and social issue is resulting in tons of people being killed, you'd expect it come up in a forum for discussing policy, technology, and society.

partiallypro 3y ago

In Europe it is very common to have something outside the speed limit that makes someone slow down, and I don't mean speed bumps. They will plant trees along the road in slower areas which give the feeling that the road has narrowed (for example) and you feel like you need to slow down because they shoulder basically no longer exists. I find that very interesting. The US is just behind on road design, stuck in the 1950s. Civil engineers and road designers need to change the way they think about designing roads to actually take pedestrians into consideration. The way we set speed limits is pretty comical too.

cheriot 3y ago
I can't upvote this enough. People drive as fast as they can while feeling comfortable. Road design controls the outcome and the US will reduce a 6 second delay for drivers at the cost of pedestrian lives.

calt 3y ago

One thing I've been noticing more and more since Not Just Bikes pointed it out is the shape of truck hoods. I've gone over the hood of a Honda Odyssey minivan. It wasn't fun, but I walked away because I rolled over the sloped shape and off the side. I look at the big flat intimidating front grills of modern trucks as I ride my bike around town everyday, and it's very terrifying. There's legislation around the shape of car hoods that make such things illegal, but trucks are exempt because they were viewed as "working vehicles" at the time the laws were written. Your personal truck is not a working vehicle. You think it's sexy and strong looking. I think it's terrorism. Stop making and buying these monstrosities.

2h 3y ago
correct. how the fuck are you supposed to roll over this: https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_silverado-1500_crew-cab-pickup_high-country_fq_oem_1_1600.jpg https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/...
throw0101a 3y ago
> One thing I've been noticing more and more since Not Just Bikes pointed it out is the shape of truck hoods. An M1A1 Abrams tank actually has better forward visibility than some pick-up trucks (and Peterbilt semi-tractors are about equivalent): * https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/13r9x4w/semi_truck_has_better_visibility_than_a_suburban/ https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/13r9x4w/semi_truc... Also pick-up trucks are about as long as WW2 tanks (M4, Panzer IV, T-34): * https://www.motorbiscuit.com/american-trucks-suvs-almost-bigger-world-war-ii-tanks/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/american-trucks-suvs-almost-big...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Karrot_Kream 3y ago

* Lack of pedestrian safety standards for cars unlike the EU. Exacerbated by the increasing prevalence of SUVs which automakers receive higher margins on due to a loophole in CAFE fuel efficiency standards. * Very lax licensing standards (easy exams, high tolerance for bad behavior, high BAC limits, etc) due to the sheer necessity of driving due to reliance on auto-oriented design. * Decades of policy designed to increase LOS for vehicles which results in roads that are much wider, larger, much more expensive, and designed to carry much higher throughput than equivalent roads in other countries. * Speed limits set to 85-percentile of vehicle speed along roads, coupled with high LOS on roads leading to high speed limits in places there shouldn't be. * Uneven and very lightweight traffic enforcement due to the prevalence of driving and the impacts of not being able to drive on the general public. * Resistance to traffic calming measures by local governments and planners obsessed with vehicle LOS resulting in unsafe streets for non-car users.

caseyohara 3y ago

I listened to this podcast earlier today, very interesting. They interview a researcher at University of Utah who studies distracted driving. The ergonomics and related distraction factors of In-vehicle Information Systems (IVIS) are fascinating from a UI perspective. Unsurprisingly, tactile/physical controls are much less distracting than voice controls or virtual controls like touchscreens. Part of the reason is because physical controls are faster and more precise to modulate, so your brain is distracted for less time while doing something like adjusting the temperature with a physical knob.

j_walter 3y ago

Because many people in the US believe laws will protect them...walk out in a road and cars are supposed to stop for you. If they don't...you die. Pedestrians have the most to lose, but act very casually about walking so close to where cars are driving at high speeds. In the closest major city to me (Portland) the major increase in pedestrian deaths has come from the homeless population. No good statistics on why, but drugs were decriminalized a few years ago and there are suspicions that has something to do with it, but the data is not easily reviewed. Also, some major cities (like Portland) reduced normal traffic patrols that would help to curb speeding and reckless driving. https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/03/70-percent-pedestrians-hit-cars-portland-were-experiencing-homelessness/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/03/70-percent-pedestrian...

joncp 3y ago
I’ve noticed the same in Seattle. There’s also a more “I dare you to hit me” attitude in a lot of my fellow pedestrians than in other cities I’ve lived in. I’m sure that has at least something to do with it too.
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  That doesn't work with busses, however. Bus drivers here seem much more brazen than other cities I've seen.
calt 3y ago
This is victim blaming, plain and simple. Why are people ever forced to be close to high speed traffic? The likelihood of dying goes up very quickly as vehicle speed goes up. It is possible to design livable cities where screwing up doesn’t cost you your life.
- j_walter 3y ago
  People aren't forced, they make bad decisions. The homeless in Portland often choose to camp near major freeways and cross them regularly. By near, I mean directly next to (like between the offramp and the freeway). The city isn't allowed to or chooses not to remove these people in unsafe areas and when they do things to dissuade camping next to freeways they are cast as terrible people for hating the homeless. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/man-killed-car-hits-tent-portland-offramp/283-8645dfc6-863b-453b-871e-7c31caed156b https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/man-killed-c... Driver was DUI, but was later found not guilty because they suspected even a sober person would not have been reasonably able to avoid hitting this woman crossing a major freeway in a bad area at night. https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/09/homeless-woman-dies-after-dashing-across-highway-26-in-portland-family-settles-for-305000.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/09/homeless-woman-dies-... Portland city council member slams department of transportation for putting up rocks near freeways to deter camping https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/commissioner-hardesty-slams-odot-over-using-boulder-fields-to-displace-homeless-campers/283-e7c4c478-6a83-49c8-9a3a-4b1eb5c39625 https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/commissioner...

ronnier 3y ago

I operate from a different perspective when walking in that I assume cars are not stopping for me, they don't see me, and they have the right of way. I see many people blindly walking across streets when the walk signal goes green, they don't even look. There's too many inattentive drivers and texting drivers to depend on them to do the right thing.

flashback2199 3y ago
Same, but it's hard to go running that way. Run 100 feet, stop look for cars, run 100 feet, stop look for cars, is a bad workout.
Bukhmanizer 3y ago
I guarantee you’re not as safe as you think you are unless you literally never walk anywhere. Drivers illegally tint their windows so you can’t see them. Some can be staring literally right at you while stopped at a stop sign and not see you. The sidewalk isn’t even that safe, I see big trucks accidentally jump the curb and ride on the sidewalk pretty regularly.
soupfordummies 3y ago
Ah, defensive... walking. Nice! My dad gave me a good bit of advice when learning to drive, which is also a good distillation of defensive driving in a nutshell: assume the other driver is about to do something stupid. Usually you don't even have to ASSUME in Atlanta, unfortunately.

cheriot 3y ago

Why is this article [flagged]? It's not a duplicate and from a more respected source than most things on HN

hytdstd 3y ago
My guess: people dislike critical discussion about the things they enjoy.
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  Are you suggesting the technorati enjoy running over pedestrians?
  - Fricken 3y ago
    It's an acceptable risk
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - hytdstd 3y ago
    No, they may not explicitly enjoy it, yet they likely appreciate the ease the automobile-focused society brings, even though it contributes to around 7000 pedestrian fatalities annually. Anyone rational would view such preventable loss of life as disastrous. However, the solutions — improved street layouts, less wide roads, use of speed cameras and so on — are often deemed so unpalatable that it prompts a flag on the article. It appears as though a number of readers here don't find 7000 annual deaths significant enough.
  - cheriot 3y ago
    Much of car culture and related land use decisions are rooted in class and race. I wouldn't say enjoy, but it's a requirement for many.
- snoooowflakes 3y ago

hindsightbias 3y ago

What is the per capita rate adjusted for vehicle weight and miles driven?

calt 3y ago
I would find the deaths per miles walked to be even more interesting. We drive a lot so that number would be low, but if we’re dying quite a lot for how little we walk, that would be extremely telling of how bad the problem is.
smtpete 3y ago
Based on us distance data from https://www.bts.gov/content/us-passenger-miles https://www.bts.gov/content/us-passenger-miles, europe distance data from and death rates from https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813435 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... for US, https://www.statista.com/statistics/1331134/road-traffic-fatalities-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1331134/road-traffic-fat... for germany, and https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240414/fatalities-in-traffic-accidents-in-norway/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240414/fatalities-in-tr... for norway It looks like in 2021 the death rate per km driven: US is 42,939deaths/5,349,230 million miles = 0.0050 deaths per million km Germany (2020) 2,719 deaths/718056 million kilometers = 0.0039 deaths per million km Norway 80 deaths/68232 million kilometers = 0.0012 deaths per million km It certainly looks better for the US than it does when looking at deaths per capita, or deaths per vehicle. Though US still looks bad. You could argue US driving way more per capita is might also be due to bad design that makes for more traffic deaths
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  Thx for the research. Presumably most pedestrian deaths are urban and cities with European densities here have high rates so still bad design.

garbagecoder 3y ago

America bad.