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> I had no idea that there are left-leaning, feminist-identifying women who held such views. They're among the most vocal and out there group among the feminis

> I had no idea that there are left-leaning, feminist-identifying women who held such views. They're among the most vocal and out there group among the feminists, they're hard to miss. > because somehow the book was featured by Tucker Carlson? That should be a big clue. These aren't feminists looking out for other women, these are feminists looking for ways to elevate themselves at everyone else's expense. Frankly it blows my mind to see this bigotry on hackernews, yet here we are.

woooooo 3y ago
How would you handle the prison situation? Convicted formerly-male rapist, now identifies as female. Which prison do they go to? Yes it's a cherry-picked example but it's also a test of absolute statements about bigotry. Maybe there's nuance.
- jl6 3y ago
  To be clear, nobody is “formerly-male”. Gender reassignment through hormones and surgery doesn’t actually change sex. The answer here depends on what you think the purpose of segregated prisons is. If you think it’s to reduce the risk of females being attacked by males (because the overwhelming majority of sexual assault is done by males to females), then males (regardless of gender) must go to male prisons.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Your second paragraph is a total dodge. I'm tempted to characterize it as lacking male-gendered terms.
    - jl6 3y ago
      Are you clear on the difference between sex and gender? Some people think prisons are supposed to be segregated by sex, with gender being less relevant to the purpose of protecting females.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        But if you had to make the choice, in exactly one case? Convicted rapist, currently identifying as female.
        jl6 3y ago
        Doesn’t really matter what they identify as. If they’re male they should go in the male prison. Identifying as something doesn’t change the physical attributes that make males a potential threat to females.
        woooooo 3y ago
        I agree, it's obvious common sense. What's interesting is that it was so hard to get there. Despite the answer being obvious. The article author suffers from the same problem, she keeps tacking on unnecessary attacks on what gender "is" that derail some legitimate concerns.
        jl6 3y ago
        What a lot of people don’t understand about this flavor of feminism is that it isn’t about gender, or directly about trans people. It’s about the primacy of sex in defining and defending women as a class. Social roles, gender, clothes, appearance, identification, personality… none of these things are what makes a woman a woman.
        woooooo 3y ago
        Yeah, I guess I was getting around to arguing about primacy of sex vs gender being stupid. Let people live their lives and then make the obvious decision when that clashes with the rights of others. The contrarian in me just loves riling people up on the topic :)
- Zandikar 3y ago
  It's prison. You don't want them fighting and fucking, you keep them separate, not based on sex, not orientation, not identity, not race, (they will largely self-sort along those lines anyway), but rather on the key thing that actually matters: their ability and prediliction for causing violence/problems/injury/the thing you're trying to avoid. The person in question like to fight people of a certain skin color, gender, identity, orientation, favorite food, etc? Keep the INDIVIDUAL that's causing a problem separate, not whatever demographic they belong to. Can't keep them separate? Sounds like you overcrowded your prisons, which is an entirely separate issue. Trying to blame gender or sort the problem through the lens of sex/identity/gender just means you know have 3 separate groups that are fighting and fucking amongst each other. Good job, just wasted a bunch of time and resources on some virtue signalling. Additionally it would be better to try to actually reform and treat people instead of just punishing them then tossing them aside, then wondering why it's so hard to keep the peace in the prison. But yes, the Trans people are the problem /s. > It's also a test of absolute statements about bigotry No, it's a dog whistle based on a false premise. You don't call for nuance with an "absolute test". You do that to feign an air of tolerance while pushing forward the narrative.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Its a binary question and I see zero answer despite a lot of words. If you had to make that call, in that case, which is it? (For the record, the narrative I'm pushing here is "shades of gray" rather than "red")
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Zandikar 3y ago
      So I Answer with nuance about said shades of gray, and your response is that you don't want to read that much and "Its a binary question". > For the record, the narrative I'm pushing here is "shades of gray Fine. Let's assume that's true. > Convicted formerly-male rapist, now identifies as female. Which prison do they go to With information given, it doesn't matter, but generally default to male for violent criminals. Reason: You prioritize protecting others from violent offenders over the offender themself when push comes to shove, which is what you're forcing by framing the question in such a way. If we modify the question slightly to remove the implication and give enough actual information to make a determination, we'd specify who the male had raped. You send them to the opposite. Unless it's both/unclear, in which case, you refer back to my default. It's not a hard question. But the way you frame it is straight out of a fascist handbook (Throw the "paradox" of tolerance in their face while strictly framing the question in a way that does not allow for nuance), especially while trying to advocate for "shades of gray" while insisting on reducing the discussion to a binary question. It's not productive discourse. So no, the narrative here you're pushing is not "shades of gray", it's literally binary.
CKP_againing 3y ago
I find it interesting that so many commenters here have reacted to this female-centered perspective with such knee-jerk emotion, throwing around accusations of bigotry rather than engaging intellectually with this feminist viewpoint. At least there was one commenter who approached the issue with intellectual curiosity, marvelling at a point of view he'd never before encountered, and on that basis I consider this article having been well worth posting.

woooooo 3y ago

How would you handle the prison situation? Convicted formerly-male rapist, now identifies as female. Which prison do they go to? Yes it's a cherry-picked example but it's also a test of absolute statements about bigotry. Maybe there's nuance.

jl6 3y ago
To be clear, nobody is “formerly-male”. Gender reassignment through hormones and surgery doesn’t actually change sex. The answer here depends on what you think the purpose of segregated prisons is. If you think it’s to reduce the risk of females being attacked by males (because the overwhelming majority of sexual assault is done by males to females), then males (regardless of gender) must go to male prisons.
- woooooo 3y ago
  Your second paragraph is a total dodge. I'm tempted to characterize it as lacking male-gendered terms.
  - jl6 3y ago
    Are you clear on the difference between sex and gender? Some people think prisons are supposed to be segregated by sex, with gender being less relevant to the purpose of protecting females.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      But if you had to make the choice, in exactly one case? Convicted rapist, currently identifying as female.
      - jl6 3y ago
        Doesn’t really matter what they identify as. If they’re male they should go in the male prison. Identifying as something doesn’t change the physical attributes that make males a potential threat to females.
        woooooo 3y ago
        I agree, it's obvious common sense. What's interesting is that it was so hard to get there. Despite the answer being obvious. The article author suffers from the same problem, she keeps tacking on unnecessary attacks on what gender "is" that derail some legitimate concerns.
        jl6 3y ago
        What a lot of people don’t understand about this flavor of feminism is that it isn’t about gender, or directly about trans people. It’s about the primacy of sex in defining and defending women as a class. Social roles, gender, clothes, appearance, identification, personality… none of these things are what makes a woman a woman.
        woooooo 3y ago
        Yeah, I guess I was getting around to arguing about primacy of sex vs gender being stupid. Let people live their lives and then make the obvious decision when that clashes with the rights of others. The contrarian in me just loves riling people up on the topic :)
Zandikar 3y ago
It's prison. You don't want them fighting and fucking, you keep them separate, not based on sex, not orientation, not identity, not race, (they will largely self-sort along those lines anyway), but rather on the key thing that actually matters: their ability and prediliction for causing violence/problems/injury/the thing you're trying to avoid. The person in question like to fight people of a certain skin color, gender, identity, orientation, favorite food, etc? Keep the INDIVIDUAL that's causing a problem separate, not whatever demographic they belong to. Can't keep them separate? Sounds like you overcrowded your prisons, which is an entirely separate issue. Trying to blame gender or sort the problem through the lens of sex/identity/gender just means you know have 3 separate groups that are fighting and fucking amongst each other. Good job, just wasted a bunch of time and resources on some virtue signalling. Additionally it would be better to try to actually reform and treat people instead of just punishing them then tossing them aside, then wondering why it's so hard to keep the peace in the prison. But yes, the Trans people are the problem /s. > It's also a test of absolute statements about bigotry No, it's a dog whistle based on a false premise. You don't call for nuance with an "absolute test". You do that to feign an air of tolerance while pushing forward the narrative.
- woooooo 3y ago
  Its a binary question and I see zero answer despite a lot of words. If you had to make that call, in that case, which is it? (For the record, the narrative I'm pushing here is "shades of gray" rather than "red")
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Zandikar 3y ago
    So I Answer with nuance about said shades of gray, and your response is that you don't want to read that much and "Its a binary question". > For the record, the narrative I'm pushing here is "shades of gray Fine. Let's assume that's true. > Convicted formerly-male rapist, now identifies as female. Which prison do they go to With information given, it doesn't matter, but generally default to male for violent criminals. Reason: You prioritize protecting others from violent offenders over the offender themself when push comes to shove, which is what you're forcing by framing the question in such a way. If we modify the question slightly to remove the implication and give enough actual information to make a determination, we'd specify who the male had raped. You send them to the opposite. Unless it's both/unclear, in which case, you refer back to my default. It's not a hard question. But the way you frame it is straight out of a fascist handbook (Throw the "paradox" of tolerance in their face while strictly framing the question in a way that does not allow for nuance), especially while trying to advocate for "shades of gray" while insisting on reducing the discussion to a binary question. It's not productive discourse. So no, the narrative here you're pushing is not "shades of gray", it's literally binary.

CKP_againing 3y ago

I find it interesting that so many commenters here have reacted to this female-centered perspective with such knee-jerk emotion, throwing around accusations of bigotry rather than engaging intellectually with this feminist viewpoint. At least there was one commenter who approached the issue with intellectual curiosity, marvelling at a point of view he'd never before encountered, and on that basis I consider this article having been well worth posting.