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A big part of the reason these unionization efforts are happening: https://csstipendrankings.org/ https://csstipendrankings.org/ Many universities are not pay
by fruffy 3y ago
A big part of the reason these unionization efforts are happening:
https://csstipendrankings.org/ https://csstipendrankings.org/
Many universities are not paying a living wage for the area they are located in.
- supernova87a 3y ago[flagged]
- coeneedell 3y ago“PhD student” is a more than full time research job. In terms of the experience it’s not unlike being an analyst or a fresh lawyer.
- olliej 3y agoSo what I'm hearing is "if you are a student, you should not be able to live", is that right?
- short_throw 3y ago>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Eigenstate 3y agoBecause higher education shouldn't be something reserved for the independently wealthy?
- supernova87a 3y agoThis is perhaps the most creditable argument. But still, I doubt you would have found many grad students who were independently wealthy before unionization. Or at least, in the field where they were lobbying the hardest for unionization, is probably where the most independently wealthy students were.
- lesuorac 3y agoI suspect the union says so you might want to consider writing to them for why they feel that way.
- mjhay 3y agoYou obviously have absolutely no clue how research PhDs work. Most PhD students are pretty much done with classes after the first year or two. They get their PhDs through research (often writing their own grants) or the vital function of teaching. They are workers. It is disingenuous to view them as students. If PhD students were not able to make a living, very, very few people would ever be able to enter science.
- supernova87a 3y ago> You obviously have absolutely no clue how research PhDs work. Somehow my 6 years of PhD in physics begs to differ. As I said in another comment, grad students are going to grad school and getting a big bump to their future earning potential, subsidized often by the state. I don't think it's an entitlement that they get to do that for free, much less claim a right to earn living wage level on top of that.
- mjhay 3y agoMaybe you were doing a CS PhD or something, but PhDs in most fields are not a good good way to maximize earning potential, especially when taking into account lost potential wages and the time value of money.
- WalterBright 3y ago>> my 6 years of PhD in physics > Maybe you were doing a CS PhD or something LOL > PhDs in most fields are not a good good way to maximize earning potential, especially when taking into account lost potential wages and the time value of money. Nobody made anyone get a PhD in a field that doesn't pay, and so that doesn't mean they're entitled to high pay. It's not hard to google "starting pay for major x" before making a choice. Nobody should be surprised at what the pay is, especially for someone capable of getting a PhD.
- BenFranklin100 3y agoAs someone who also spent six years in grad school, I’m entitled to say grad students are generally remarkably unproductive. Much of their ‘research’ work after the 2-3 years of classes is best considered continuing education. Most of them suck as TAs too. They don’t need to make a living either - They just need to get by for 5 years by living with roommates and eating ramen. It’s what I did. (And it’s not true grad students ‘often’ write their own successful grants. The vast majority of STEM grad students are supported on stipends from their advisor’s research grants or do a TA-ship when desperate.)
- armchairhacker 3y agoin addition, many professors and departments discourage PhD students from taking separate jobs, and sometimes its even part of the funding agreement that you don’t take a separate job
- OkayPhysicist 3y agoIt's okay to be ignorant about how weird things work, but sharing opinions about things you don't know about should be avoided. A PhD "student" isn't really a student. They're an employed researcher at a research institution, working under more senior researchers who are able to attract grant money. To use an analogy to the trades, the PhD students are the apprentices, the senior researchers / professors are the journeymen. Do not misunderstand, the PhD students are doing labor for the benefit of the university, and getting paid to do so. The problem arises from uninformed people who ask exactly your question, operating on the misguided assumption that graduate school is just more, harder undergraduate school.
- supernova87a 3y agoYeah, I was a grad student in physics for 6 years, so feel free not to offer opinions on things you don't know about. Grad students are getting an education and a big bump to their future earning potential, often at significant taxpayer expense. What entitlement do they have to have a free ride, much less make living wage on top of that?
- comex 3y agoMany career paths include a steady increase in future earning potential. As for entitlement, they are entitled to a share of the value they bring to their employer. Or at least, if Stanford doesn’t think so, it can fire them.
- supernova87a 3y agoI disagree. You are entitled to what you can negotiate as your market value and what you accept in exchange for your labor and talents. If grad students are lined up the door willing to work for less because a PhD from Stanford gives them a ticket for the rest of their life, why should Stanford or any employer have to give them a share of value? That's not how most employment works. Or at least not O(n) proportional to the value they create.
- 3y ago
- metal_am 3y agoGrad student contracts usually prohibit you from having another job.
- B1FF_PSUVM 3y agoThe phrase used to be "starving grad student", maybe now it's not a jest anymore, and it falls flat ...
- e63f67dd-065b 3y agoThe numbers for the MIT living wage calculator are completely wrong for most PhD students. For one, they include thing like social security taxes, which students do not pay. They overestimate medical costs, because most PhD students are young and will not have health complications that drive costs. The rent estimate is based on single-occupancy units, which doesn't make sense because most live with roommates (https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide-Technical-Documentation-2023-02-01.pdf https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide...). Students often qualify for benefits that are not included in the estimate. It's a popular number to use, but is often quite an overestimate.
- light_hue_1 3y agoThis is some nonsense. It's not an overestimate at all. Grad students do have health issues. I know plenty who do. Actually. I have never had a PhD student who did not have some major health issue in their 5-6 years. Many grad students have families. They can't live with 6 other people in a unit. They have childcare. Rent is extremely expensive around MIT. Even a room in a larger unit will easily run you 1.5k or more per month plus utilities. With 47k in Cambridge even if I shared an apartment and cut expenses I could just scrape by if I didn't have a child. I have no idea how I would make it with one.
- e63f67dd-065b 3y agoDo you disupte any of the things I mentioned? Yes, obviously PhD students with kids and health issues exist, but on average, PhD students are younger, healthier, pay less taxes, qualify for more benefits, and don't have children. The MIT estimate is based on all the above not being true, but that's simply not reflective of the PhD student population.
- theGnuMe 3y agoStudents pay taxes, Reagan did that.
- e63f67dd-065b 3y ago
- svnt 3y agoAnd this is computer science. If you want to feel bad for someone, grad students in e.g. biology or anthropology are still at or below $20k annually in many places.
- lordloki 3y agoIf you include tuition at the rate undergrads pay it as part of the compensation then they are paid much more than the median wage. Average annual tuition alone for many research universities is higher than the median annual wage.
- fruffy 3y agoFor the vast majority of the degree, PhDs are not taking any classes (often, they are not even allowed to). They are just workers who either teach or research. The tuition is usually an accounting trick used by colleges/universities for tax and visa sponsorship purposes. Although faculty typically has to cover a PhD's tuition, factoring it in as pay is a little disingenuous. If tuition was not waived, PhDs would not even apply. The way the PhD is set up in the US is a little byzantine. Other countries (Canada, continental Europe) do have normal employment contracts and benefits.