4 ms·

Why on earth does a macbook (pro nonetheless) have as little ram as a phone?

justsomehnguy 3y ago
I was quite amused hearing how people (probably the same who singed praises) ditched the first gen M1s with 8Gb, because 'not enough memory', merely a year later.
- tiltowait 3y ago
  The first gen went up to 16GB, so anyone buying 8GB was just price-chasing.
  - etempleton 3y ago
    I do find it a bit odd they even offer the 8GB version. It truly does not feel like enough. 16 GB feels like it should be the entry point for MacOS.
    - mrbuttons454 3y ago
      For someone that frequents Hacker News, maybe. My spouse has an 8GB M2 Air and has no complaints.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > just price-chasing This is not the problem. You can find comments here how people literally said what 'it were running better than x86 Macs with 16+GBs'. ADD: and 'nobody needs more than 8GB, because it works so fine'. Just to clarify.
    - mwint 3y ago
      I have one, and it did/does. Those statements were not untrue. Idk if it swaps fast or what, and I don't care.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        'Unified memory' access on M1 is allegedly almost as fast as CPU cache, and I believe the SSDs are extremely close to the SoC as well. Swap might be faster than some computers' actual RAM.
        pxmpxm 3y ago
        This is the exact kind of PR bamboozlement I was alluding to - literally none of the above is correct: M1 memory latency is 100ns, which wasn't really competitive with amd/intel at the time (70 something nano). Any SSD read be an order of magnitude slower than reading from ram - something to the tune of 5gb/s version vs 70gb/s for the SOC ram. For comparison, the intel trashcan mac pro clocked in at 60gb/sec a decade prior. Reference: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/5 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-di...
        LoganDark 3y ago
        > This is the kind of PR bamboozlement I was alluding to - literally none of the above is correct I'm basing my knowledge on discussions with other developers on rwkv.cpp because we were talking about how performance scales with the number of tokens per iteration. Memory speed/bandwidth came up and some things about M1 were said. Sorry about that.
        mwint 3y ago
        See, this is the thing about M1: I don’t care about your numbers (which I have no doubt are true), I care about my personal experience with the magic cold $999 aluminum slab that runs circles around everything I owned before. Reading these always feels like winning an F1 race, then being gaslit about how that’s not possible because of inferior cylinder design.
        pxmpxm 3y ago
        And all it takes is some Apple PR magic to make you disregard objective measures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)
- stu2b50 3y ago
  It's not like they ditched them for x86 devices. If people said that 8GB M1s were more capable than their x86 machines, it can be logically consistent with them going for even more power as more M* series chips released.
- pxmpxm 3y ago
  This. I distinctly remember the reality distortion field that permeated the discussion ("Apple silicone doesn't need as much memory", "MacOS is more efficient than windows" and similar such idiocies) when those things first came out. Whoever Apple retained for this PR sure managed to bamboozle a lot of gullible people.
  - anon373839 3y ago
    I don’t think there’s a reality distortion field. I have a 10 year-old MacBook Pro (the very first Retina model) with 8GB of RAM. I often find myself with VSCode, two dozen Chrome tabs, some terminal windows and Adobe Illustrator (2022) running simultaneously. Somehow, it manages to cope with all of that without an issue. Of course, it doesn’t work as fast as new computers, but the UI remains fluid and responsive. I’ve never had a Windows machine offer that kind of practical longevity.
  - astrange 3y ago
    macOS is much more memory efficient than Windows. Not hard to do.
etempleton 3y ago
Only the Air and 13” Pro (which is a glorified Air with a fan) cap at 24 GBs. The 14 and 16” Pro models cap at 96 GB. The 13 inch is a bit of a lame duck product that is likely to be phased out at some point or otherwise be replaced, so while the headline is factually true it is not really indicative of the situation. I will also say, Apple devices across the board are significantly better at memory management than both Android and Windows. Where on a Windows machine I feel I need 32 GBs, 16 GBs feels adequate on MacOS. And my understanding is the situation is similar between iOS and Android.
- pxmpxm 3y ago
  >16 GBs feels adequate on MacOS Ha no, I'm using 9.98Gb of ram with literally just a single tab browser window open in Mojave. You'll be swapping constantly with anything resembling a normal workflow.
  - skydhash 3y ago
    It's memory management, not memory minimalism. I'm always hovering about 12 GB out of my 16 GB MBA, but never have any issue opening a project or opening 10–20 tabs (rookie number) and I have a few apps that are always running. I believe that macOS uses the RAM for caching files, so the reported usage is not really tied to the number of apps running. There are memory-heavy workflows, but these are outliers. Even 8 GB would be fine for most of what I do.
  - 10u152 3y ago
    If SWAP is fast enough....does it matter?
    - pxmpxm 3y ago
      It doesn't - that's exactly why people have workstation with a ton of ram. As soon as you have to hop over the pci bus, you're looking at 1/10th of the speed.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Did you just say Mojave? Because I have extensive experience with Mojave and it does not use swap whatsoever. Instead, you have overcommit and memory compression. That application that the OS says uses 10GB of RAM does not actually.

I was quite amused hearing how people (probably the same who singed praises) ditched the first gen M1s with 8Gb, because 'not enough memory', merely a year later.

tiltowait 3y ago
The first gen went up to 16GB, so anyone buying 8GB was just price-chasing.
- etempleton 3y ago
  I do find it a bit odd they even offer the 8GB version. It truly does not feel like enough. 16 GB feels like it should be the entry point for MacOS.
  - mrbuttons454 3y ago
    For someone that frequents Hacker News, maybe. My spouse has an 8GB M2 Air and has no complaints.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > just price-chasing This is not the problem. You can find comments here how people literally said what 'it were running better than x86 Macs with 16+GBs'. ADD: and 'nobody needs more than 8GB, because it works so fine'. Just to clarify.
  - mwint 3y ago
    I have one, and it did/does. Those statements were not untrue. Idk if it swaps fast or what, and I don't care.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      'Unified memory' access on M1 is allegedly almost as fast as CPU cache, and I believe the SSDs are extremely close to the SoC as well. Swap might be faster than some computers' actual RAM.
      - pxmpxm 3y ago
        This is the exact kind of PR bamboozlement I was alluding to - literally none of the above is correct: M1 memory latency is 100ns, which wasn't really competitive with amd/intel at the time (70 something nano). Any SSD read be an order of magnitude slower than reading from ram - something to the tune of 5gb/s version vs 70gb/s for the SOC ram. For comparison, the intel trashcan mac pro clocked in at 60gb/sec a decade prior. Reference: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/5 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-di...
        LoganDark 3y ago
        > This is the kind of PR bamboozlement I was alluding to - literally none of the above is correct I'm basing my knowledge on discussions with other developers on rwkv.cpp because we were talking about how performance scales with the number of tokens per iteration. Memory speed/bandwidth came up and some things about M1 were said. Sorry about that.
        mwint 3y ago
        See, this is the thing about M1: I don’t care about your numbers (which I have no doubt are true), I care about my personal experience with the magic cold $999 aluminum slab that runs circles around everything I owned before. Reading these always feels like winning an F1 race, then being gaslit about how that’s not possible because of inferior cylinder design.
        pxmpxm 3y ago
        And all it takes is some Apple PR magic to make you disregard objective measures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)
stu2b50 3y ago
It's not like they ditched them for x86 devices. If people said that 8GB M1s were more capable than their x86 machines, it can be logically consistent with them going for even more power as more M* series chips released.
pxmpxm 3y ago
This. I distinctly remember the reality distortion field that permeated the discussion ("Apple silicone doesn't need as much memory", "MacOS is more efficient than windows" and similar such idiocies) when those things first came out. Whoever Apple retained for this PR sure managed to bamboozle a lot of gullible people.
- anon373839 3y ago
  I don’t think there’s a reality distortion field. I have a 10 year-old MacBook Pro (the very first Retina model) with 8GB of RAM. I often find myself with VSCode, two dozen Chrome tabs, some terminal windows and Adobe Illustrator (2022) running simultaneously. Somehow, it manages to cope with all of that without an issue. Of course, it doesn’t work as fast as new computers, but the UI remains fluid and responsive. I’ve never had a Windows machine offer that kind of practical longevity.
- astrange 3y ago
  macOS is much more memory efficient than Windows. Not hard to do.

etempleton 3y ago

Only the Air and 13” Pro (which is a glorified Air with a fan) cap at 24 GBs. The 14 and 16” Pro models cap at 96 GB. The 13 inch is a bit of a lame duck product that is likely to be phased out at some point or otherwise be replaced, so while the headline is factually true it is not really indicative of the situation. I will also say, Apple devices across the board are significantly better at memory management than both Android and Windows. Where on a Windows machine I feel I need 32 GBs, 16 GBs feels adequate on MacOS. And my understanding is the situation is similar between iOS and Android.

pxmpxm 3y ago
>16 GBs feels adequate on MacOS Ha no, I'm using 9.98Gb of ram with literally just a single tab browser window open in Mojave. You'll be swapping constantly with anything resembling a normal workflow.
- skydhash 3y ago
  It's memory management, not memory minimalism. I'm always hovering about 12 GB out of my 16 GB MBA, but never have any issue opening a project or opening 10–20 tabs (rookie number) and I have a few apps that are always running. I believe that macOS uses the RAM for caching files, so the reported usage is not really tied to the number of apps running. There are memory-heavy workflows, but these are outliers. Even 8 GB would be fine for most of what I do.
- 10u152 3y ago
  If SWAP is fast enough....does it matter?
  - pxmpxm 3y ago
    It doesn't - that's exactly why people have workstation with a ton of ram. As soon as you have to hop over the pci bus, you're looking at 1/10th of the speed.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Did you just say Mojave? Because I have extensive experience with Mojave and it does not use swap whatsoever. Instead, you have overcommit and memory compression. That application that the OS says uses 10GB of RAM does not actually.