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>>> "Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes, and what you’re about to read doesn’t disp

>>> "Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes, and what you’re about to read doesn’t dispute that. But EV adoption is tripping over range limitations, patchy charging networks, and high prices resulting from the cost of the batteries that power them." It sounds like EVs are the best option long term: it's just that in the short term there's a few snafus along the way. Personally, I'm only going to buy another EV and nothing else will do, even if I have to wait a year, two years or even 5 years. I've got an electric bike and I know how to use it.

ActorNightly 3y ago
Which is why the "correct" way to build a hybrid vehicle is an electric vehicle with an optional gas powered range extender. Im not sure why this isn't more common.
- germinalphrase 3y ago
  Isn’t this exactly how most PHEVs are designed?
  - jackmott42 3y ago
    yes, or approximately so. many can also have the generator drive the wheels.
  - newaccount74 3y ago
    I think most of the PHEVs (at least in Europe) are hybrids that have a normal gas engine and a small electric engine.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    That’s called a series hybrid and very few cars use that configuration. BMW i3 had a series hybrid version that was discontinued a few years ago, and there was the Chevy Volt (also discontinued).
    - glogla 3y ago
      The current Honda hybrids (Civic for sure and I think CRV also) work kind of that way - in slow speeds it works like a series hybrid and only in freeway speeds it connects the ICE to the wheels. The claimed mileage is similar to Toyota's planetary power splitting thingie, no idea how it works in the real world. You could also say that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are series hybrids, since the fuel cell mostly charges a battery, which is much more flexible in what power it can provides and can be recuperated into, unlike a fuel cell which is one-way.
    - loire280 3y ago
      I drive a Volt and I’m convinced this configuration of car is what many Americans should be buying until battery manufacturing ramps up and EV fast charging infrastructure is widely deployed. It gets 45-60mi range but it charges just fine overnight from a 120v plug. Most of the time it’s an EV, but we need the extra range several times a month for longer local trips or to visit family in a nearby city. The gas engine requires very little maintenance because it runs infrequently and at optimal RPM and load, it weighs less than a 200mi+ range battery, and (for now) it’s easier to manufacture from more common materials.
      - malyk 3y ago
        I agree. I also drive a volt and 98% of the time it's driven with the battery, but those 2% of the time where I need/want the engine (like a camping trip this past weekend), it's really great. I don't every want a 100% electric car. We're a 1 car household so I really want the flexibility of going wherever without having to plan around the charger network.
    - fomine3 3y ago
      Honda e:HEV, Nissan e-power are series hybrid system afaik. It was considered to inefficient system in theory, but it seems fine (but not so great as THS), drive feeling is very close to BEV, and can share development resource with PHEV/BEV.
- Buttons840 3y ago
  The "gas powered range extender" is a generator I assume?
  - jackmott42 3y ago
    yes
- hedora 3y ago
  I bought an EV without a range extender (an identical car with a range extender was a comparable price). Why would I want to change the oil on the range extender, deal with emissions tests, and so on? That's a bigger pain than just renting an ICE car for the 1-2 times a year when we take a road trip.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    Because the goal is to transition to electric first, not have electric cars and traditional ICE cars for everyone who doesn't fit the use case for an electric car.
  - Faaak 3y ago
    Same here. I have two old EVs. A Renault Twizy, 70km of range, which is really great for city driving (I even have a tow hitch on it in order to go to the recycling place), and a more "real" car: Hyundai Ioniq, 200km of range, which I use to go on road trips and the like. Yes, it takes more time, but hey, there's no maintenance, and I love that.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    You're evaluating it for yourself, and that's normal, but there's a lot of diversity out there with vehicle needs and EVs have serious limitations for some use cases.
  - bittercynic 3y ago
    Emissions testing is only once every other year, and changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up after. Every time I've rented a car it's been a substantial hassle, and I've felt anxious about how much it might cost me if something happened to the car while I was responsible for it. Different people have different ideas about what's a pain.
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      > changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up If you already own and know everything you need, yes. Most regular people don’t own a jack capable of lifting the car high enough. Most people don’t own jack stands to make getting under the car safe. Most people don’t own an oil filter wrench. Most people in cities can’t just do all this on the street without getting their legs run over. Most people don’t know how to dispose of motor oil. Most people don’t know or are not allowed to know which oil to buy and how much (my car’s manual doesn’t say that).
- drewg123 3y ago
  Range extenders should be something on a trailer you tow behind you, and which you can rent for a long-haul road trip. Whether that something is a 200KWh battery pack, or a gas/diesel based generator doesn't really matter.
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    I mean at that point can't you just tow a trailer running a diesel generator recharging your car?
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      EVs don’t allow that. Either you’re driving or charging.
      - voisin 3y ago
        Source?
        chipsa 3y ago
        Every commercially MFGd EV has an electronic interlock on the cable to keep you from busting the charge port.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  "optional gas powered range extender" Is this how we are re-branding internal combustion engines?
  - freedomben 3y ago
    There are still plenty of ICE engines that aren't "optional gas powered range extenders." If anything it seems more like a re-brand of "generators" since the engine producers electricity rather than direct drive train force. The term seems genuinely useful to me, not just some marketing buzzword or spin.
- adastra22 3y ago
  That's exactly what a hybrid car is. My 2021 Toyota is an all-electric drive train. Even the old Prius there used to be people practicing "zen driving" where they try to keep the engine from turning on. That's only possible if the gas engine is being used as a range extender. It's just that the no-gas range of a hybrid is something crazy low, like 4 miles or something, since it has a very small battery. The plug-in hybrids improve that situation just by adding a larger battery, not by changing the mechanics of how the drive works.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    Nope, Toyota uses a pretty complicated arrangement of an ICE mechanically linked to the wheels and two electric motors able to send power back and forth and a planetary gear transmission between them. It’s an amazing system that makes it feel like the ICE isn’t even driving the car directly, but most of the time it actually is.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Then how are people able to drive without the ICE even being on?
      - Toutouxc 3y ago
        It’s a planetary gear, three shafts go in. The ICE one is stopped, the wheels one is driven by an electric motor and the third one is rotating freely.
      - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
        Toyota's HSD is pretty brilliant, and uses planetary gears that can blend electric/engine 0-100% depending on needs. The engine is never "disconnected" when the electric motors are the ones providing power.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  This is basically how Toyota's hybrid engine works. Almost everything is powered off the inverter. I think the only thing that isn't is the gas engine's water pump, which has no reason to be electric. It's way more efficient to build the a hybrid with the gas engine as part of the drivetrain than only use it power electric motors.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    Toyota's eCVT? Not at all. The gas engine can drive the front wheels directly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc Conceptual explanation of the system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM Weber Auto giving an extensive hands on explanation.
    - kayodelycaon 3y ago
      Which I indirectly mention in my second paragraph.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    It’s true that most accessories in the car are electric, but the ICE is a full blown, powerful car engine that’s mechanically connected to the wheels and that in some regimes directly drives the car. I don’t think that was what OP meant.
adastra22 3y ago
I'm not even sold on that interpretation either. There's a lot of externalities in the lithium battery industry that are being glossed over in most of those calculations. And gasoline can be made carbon-neutral through synthesis, using either solar or, ideally, waste heat from nuclear power to turn CO2 into gasoline. In that world a hybrid gets the best of both. The main reason for wanting an all-electric future in my mind is the health benefits of not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside. It's worth it for that.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  > not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside Also, engine noise. Noise pollution in cities can be maddening, and it's mainly car engines.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Yeah it was amazing for a few weeks during the height of the COVID lockdowns when all that freeway traffic went away and the smog cleared. Had no idea what we were missing out on.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    Most road noise generated from a vehicle is from tires on the ground once you get above 18 mph. Modern mufflers are remarkably effective at silencing the engine. IIRC at highway speeds the overall shape of the car moving through the air is also a significant noise generator, but I don't remember where I read that right now.
    - voisin 3y ago
      Source?
      - Toutouxc 3y ago
        Not scientific, but literally just stand next to a road. A normal car driving at speed makes a “whoosh” noise, not a “vroom” noise.
givemeethekeys 3y ago
I love my ICE car. It has almost 200k miles and is still running strong. I will drive it until the engine dies, at which point I will convert it to fully electric.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
The only way we'll ever actually get around to solving the problems with EVs is if they're widely produced and used. I'm not saying that battery or charging station production will follow any sort of exponential curve, but economies of scale are a thing, and once EV ownership hits a critical mass, they will be catered to. A brave soul at my condo complex bought a tesla. I have been trying to get the board to allow the installation of charging spots for years now, but if there are enough of us, it will be impossible to ignore us.
- foogazi 3y ago
  > I have been trying to get the board Have you tried getting ON the board ? Maybe as a single issue candidate
Zandikar 3y ago
Yes, like any technology, it takes time and real-world use to mature it. As it stands right now, EV's are NOT up to the task of replacing Combustion Engines full stop, even in the light commercial/consumer car markets. Are they improving each year and able to cover more and more applications where ICE previously excelled? Yeah. But EV's are pretty shit right now tbh. Sure, they're perfectly fine for a broad part of the personal/consumer car market. There's a LOT of owners of Camry's, Impala's, Civics, etc that would love a similar form factor EV Version of their car. I'm not denying that. But Camry's and Civic's and Joe Blows daily driver aren't the biggest polluters. Additionally, car pooling and public transit could reduce the number of personal commuter consumer vehicles by massive numbers, it would have a far bigger impact on local/regional air quality/pollution than switching them to EV's ever could hope to. It's the trucks, from pickups all the way up that are the key, and why I say EV's are shit. You can't carpool fully loaded Semi Trucks together (not safely anyway). If your metric for "EV better than ICE" revolves around Emissions, then your EV needs to be able to match the 8+ hour duty cycle of a combustion powered work truck, while beating it on emissions. Battery/Charging tech isn't quite there yet, though a high capacity battery swap system (despite having a multitude of it's own challenges) would help "bridge the gap". Just look at the Rivian and it's terrible mileage when actually hauling a load (even with regen braking, they don't beat diesel on range, despite eating MULTIPLE thousand pounds into the GVWR budget). This is where the reality and logistics of EV's today just fall flat for long haul and large/heavy freight, and unlike with camry's, there aren't viable alternatives like public transit, biking, carpool etc. And GM's about to learn a very hard lesson by not allowing Android/Apple Car Play to drive this point home. Also > Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes, How many EV's do you have to go through to match the lifetime of 1 ICE powered vehicle? Genuine question, they traditionally have been significantly worse, but battery tech is getting pretty good. Toyota's right. Hybrids are the way to go TODAY, because there's a lot more to this debate than Emissions (Like it or not, the grid is not ready for a rapid turnover of ICE to EV, and it wont be cheap to address). Long term, assuming we don't hit some sort of hard wall with battery tech or something, they absolutely will be superior. Though, frankly, I'd much rather see this car centric madness die. Advocating for EV's or hybrids over ICE is a lot like advocating for a duller knife because it kills you slower when what you really need to do is realize you don't need a knife for 99% of your daily tasks in the first place. But the world can still breath so we're not ready for that discussion yet.

ActorNightly 3y ago

Which is why the "correct" way to build a hybrid vehicle is an electric vehicle with an optional gas powered range extender. Im not sure why this isn't more common.

germinalphrase 3y ago
Isn’t this exactly how most PHEVs are designed?
- jackmott42 3y ago
  yes, or approximately so. many can also have the generator drive the wheels.
- newaccount74 3y ago
  I think most of the PHEVs (at least in Europe) are hybrids that have a normal gas engine and a small electric engine.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  That’s called a series hybrid and very few cars use that configuration. BMW i3 had a series hybrid version that was discontinued a few years ago, and there was the Chevy Volt (also discontinued).
  - glogla 3y ago
    The current Honda hybrids (Civic for sure and I think CRV also) work kind of that way - in slow speeds it works like a series hybrid and only in freeway speeds it connects the ICE to the wheels. The claimed mileage is similar to Toyota's planetary power splitting thingie, no idea how it works in the real world. You could also say that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are series hybrids, since the fuel cell mostly charges a battery, which is much more flexible in what power it can provides and can be recuperated into, unlike a fuel cell which is one-way.
  - loire280 3y ago
    I drive a Volt and I’m convinced this configuration of car is what many Americans should be buying until battery manufacturing ramps up and EV fast charging infrastructure is widely deployed. It gets 45-60mi range but it charges just fine overnight from a 120v plug. Most of the time it’s an EV, but we need the extra range several times a month for longer local trips or to visit family in a nearby city. The gas engine requires very little maintenance because it runs infrequently and at optimal RPM and load, it weighs less than a 200mi+ range battery, and (for now) it’s easier to manufacture from more common materials.
    - malyk 3y ago
      I agree. I also drive a volt and 98% of the time it's driven with the battery, but those 2% of the time where I need/want the engine (like a camping trip this past weekend), it's really great. I don't every want a 100% electric car. We're a 1 car household so I really want the flexibility of going wherever without having to plan around the charger network.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Honda e:HEV, Nissan e-power are series hybrid system afaik. It was considered to inefficient system in theory, but it seems fine (but not so great as THS), drive feeling is very close to BEV, and can share development resource with PHEV/BEV.
Buttons840 3y ago
The "gas powered range extender" is a generator I assume?
- jackmott42 3y ago
  yes
hedora 3y ago
I bought an EV without a range extender (an identical car with a range extender was a comparable price). Why would I want to change the oil on the range extender, deal with emissions tests, and so on? That's a bigger pain than just renting an ICE car for the 1-2 times a year when we take a road trip.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  Because the goal is to transition to electric first, not have electric cars and traditional ICE cars for everyone who doesn't fit the use case for an electric car.
- Faaak 3y ago
  Same here. I have two old EVs. A Renault Twizy, 70km of range, which is really great for city driving (I even have a tow hitch on it in order to go to the recycling place), and a more "real" car: Hyundai Ioniq, 200km of range, which I use to go on road trips and the like. Yes, it takes more time, but hey, there's no maintenance, and I love that.
- freedomben 3y ago
  You're evaluating it for yourself, and that's normal, but there's a lot of diversity out there with vehicle needs and EVs have serious limitations for some use cases.
- bittercynic 3y ago
  Emissions testing is only once every other year, and changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up after. Every time I've rented a car it's been a substantial hassle, and I've felt anxious about how much it might cost me if something happened to the car while I was responsible for it. Different people have different ideas about what's a pain.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    > changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up If you already own and know everything you need, yes. Most regular people don’t own a jack capable of lifting the car high enough. Most people don’t own jack stands to make getting under the car safe. Most people don’t own an oil filter wrench. Most people in cities can’t just do all this on the street without getting their legs run over. Most people don’t know how to dispose of motor oil. Most people don’t know or are not allowed to know which oil to buy and how much (my car’s manual doesn’t say that).
drewg123 3y ago
Range extenders should be something on a trailer you tow behind you, and which you can rent for a long-haul road trip. Whether that something is a 200KWh battery pack, or a gas/diesel based generator doesn't really matter.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  I mean at that point can't you just tow a trailer running a diesel generator recharging your car?
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    EVs don’t allow that. Either you’re driving or charging.
    - voisin 3y ago
      Source?
      - chipsa 3y ago
        Every commercially MFGd EV has an electronic interlock on the cable to keep you from busting the charge port.
JimtheCoder 3y ago
"optional gas powered range extender" Is this how we are re-branding internal combustion engines?
- freedomben 3y ago
  There are still plenty of ICE engines that aren't "optional gas powered range extenders." If anything it seems more like a re-brand of "generators" since the engine producers electricity rather than direct drive train force. The term seems genuinely useful to me, not just some marketing buzzword or spin.
adastra22 3y ago
That's exactly what a hybrid car is. My 2021 Toyota is an all-electric drive train. Even the old Prius there used to be people practicing "zen driving" where they try to keep the engine from turning on. That's only possible if the gas engine is being used as a range extender. It's just that the no-gas range of a hybrid is something crazy low, like 4 miles or something, since it has a very small battery. The plug-in hybrids improve that situation just by adding a larger battery, not by changing the mechanics of how the drive works.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  Nope, Toyota uses a pretty complicated arrangement of an ICE mechanically linked to the wheels and two electric motors able to send power back and forth and a planetary gear transmission between them. It’s an amazing system that makes it feel like the ICE isn’t even driving the car directly, but most of the time it actually is.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Then how are people able to drive without the ICE even being on?
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      It’s a planetary gear, three shafts go in. The ICE one is stopped, the wheels one is driven by an electric motor and the third one is rotating freely.
    - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
      Toyota's HSD is pretty brilliant, and uses planetary gears that can blend electric/engine 0-100% depending on needs. The engine is never "disconnected" when the electric motors are the ones providing power.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
This is basically how Toyota's hybrid engine works. Almost everything is powered off the inverter. I think the only thing that isn't is the gas engine's water pump, which has no reason to be electric. It's way more efficient to build the a hybrid with the gas engine as part of the drivetrain than only use it power electric motors.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  Toyota's eCVT? Not at all. The gas engine can drive the front wheels directly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc Conceptual explanation of the system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM Weber Auto giving an extensive hands on explanation.
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago
    Which I indirectly mention in my second paragraph.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  It’s true that most accessories in the car are electric, but the ICE is a full blown, powerful car engine that’s mechanically connected to the wheels and that in some regimes directly drives the car. I don’t think that was what OP meant.

adastra22 3y ago

I'm not even sold on that interpretation either. There's a lot of externalities in the lithium battery industry that are being glossed over in most of those calculations. And gasoline can be made carbon-neutral through synthesis, using either solar or, ideally, waste heat from nuclear power to turn CO2 into gasoline. In that world a hybrid gets the best of both. The main reason for wanting an all-electric future in my mind is the health benefits of not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside. It's worth it for that.

cassianoleal 3y ago
> not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside Also, engine noise. Noise pollution in cities can be maddening, and it's mainly car engines.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Yeah it was amazing for a few weeks during the height of the COVID lockdowns when all that freeway traffic went away and the smog cleared. Had no idea what we were missing out on.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  Most road noise generated from a vehicle is from tires on the ground once you get above 18 mph. Modern mufflers are remarkably effective at silencing the engine. IIRC at highway speeds the overall shape of the car moving through the air is also a significant noise generator, but I don't remember where I read that right now.
  - voisin 3y ago
    Source?
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      Not scientific, but literally just stand next to a road. A normal car driving at speed makes a “whoosh” noise, not a “vroom” noise.

givemeethekeys 3y ago

I love my ICE car. It has almost 200k miles and is still running strong. I will drive it until the engine dies, at which point I will convert it to fully electric.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

The only way we'll ever actually get around to solving the problems with EVs is if they're widely produced and used. I'm not saying that battery or charging station production will follow any sort of exponential curve, but economies of scale are a thing, and once EV ownership hits a critical mass, they will be catered to. A brave soul at my condo complex bought a tesla. I have been trying to get the board to allow the installation of charging spots for years now, but if there are enough of us, it will be impossible to ignore us.

foogazi 3y ago
> I have been trying to get the board Have you tried getting ON the board ? Maybe as a single issue candidate

Zandikar 3y ago

Yes, like any technology, it takes time and real-world use to mature it. As it stands right now, EV's are NOT up to the task of replacing Combustion Engines full stop, even in the light commercial/consumer car markets. Are they improving each year and able to cover more and more applications where ICE previously excelled? Yeah. But EV's are pretty shit right now tbh. Sure, they're perfectly fine for a broad part of the personal/consumer car market. There's a LOT of owners of Camry's, Impala's, Civics, etc that would love a similar form factor EV Version of their car. I'm not denying that. But Camry's and Civic's and Joe Blows daily driver aren't the biggest polluters. Additionally, car pooling and public transit could reduce the number of personal commuter consumer vehicles by massive numbers, it would have a far bigger impact on local/regional air quality/pollution than switching them to EV's ever could hope to. It's the trucks, from pickups all the way up that are the key, and why I say EV's are shit. You can't carpool fully loaded Semi Trucks together (not safely anyway). If your metric for "EV better than ICE" revolves around Emissions, then your EV needs to be able to match the 8+ hour duty cycle of a combustion powered work truck, while beating it on emissions. Battery/Charging tech isn't quite there yet, though a high capacity battery swap system (despite having a multitude of it's own challenges) would help "bridge the gap". Just look at the Rivian and it's terrible mileage when actually hauling a load (even with regen braking, they don't beat diesel on range, despite eating MULTIPLE thousand pounds into the GVWR budget). This is where the reality and logistics of EV's today just fall flat for long haul and large/heavy freight, and unlike with camry's, there aren't viable alternatives like public transit, biking, carpool etc. And GM's about to learn a very hard lesson by not allowing Android/Apple Car Play to drive this point home. Also > Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes, How many EV's do you have to go through to match the lifetime of 1 ICE powered vehicle? Genuine question, they traditionally have been significantly worse, but battery tech is getting pretty good. Toyota's right. Hybrids are the way to go TODAY, because there's a lot more to this debate than Emissions (Like it or not, the grid is not ready for a rapid turnover of ICE to EV, and it wont be cheap to address). Long term, assuming we don't hit some sort of hard wall with battery tech or something, they absolutely will be superior. Though, frankly, I'd much rather see this car centric madness die. Advocating for EV's or hybrids over ICE is a lot like advocating for a duller knife because it kills you slower when what you really need to do is realize you don't need a knife for 99% of your daily tasks in the first place. But the world can still breath so we're not ready for that discussion yet.