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> because it doesn’t have a physical brain developing individual thought. You summed up my point with a single sentence I can agree with, can't argue there! I

> because it doesn’t have a physical brain developing individual thought. You summed up my point with a single sentence I can agree with, can't argue there! In your scenario what's the opinion Facebook has about advertising? I'm in favour of more bike lanes in my city but I don't consider that an opinion. Describing _why_ I'm in favour has an element of opinion but voting yes/no is not an opinion to me. Plus, any old why isn't good enough for an opinion. For instance, if Facebook says they're in favour of advertising because it helps them make money then I don't think I can consider that an opinion. I suppose corporate slogans and mission statements are opinions (We believe the customer is always right) but it's hard for me to call that an opinion because are your values actually opinions? I would say that they can be formed using opinions but I would be reluctant to say they're opinions themselves because of the "strength" of them I guess?

emodendroket 3y ago
Your conception of what constitutes an “opinion” is different than any other one I’ve ever encountered.
- evandale 3y ago
  What's your conception of an opinion? To me am opinion is a belief you have that's not based on facts. Why do you want your government to have a belief not based on facts? Furthermore, why would you want the government to push this belief on its people? Lastly why would you care about the opinion (remember: an opinion is a belief that isn't based on facts) of a corporation to the point that you'd defend their right to make statements that aren't factual?
  - afavour 3y ago
    > To me am opinion is a belief you have that's not based on facts. > Why do you want your government to have a belief not based on facts? There's some kind of fallacy at work here, you're establishing what your personal definition of something is then arguing with OP while taking your personal belief as fact. "Opinions are not based on facts" definitely isn't a universally accepted definition of an opinion. An opinion doesn't have to be based on facts but it's not precluded from it.
    - evandale 3y ago
      If there is a fallacy then you need tell me your definition of an opinion or the widely accepted definition. I can work with you if we have a common understanding but we're not at that point yet.
      - afavour 3y ago
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opinion https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opini... https://www.dictionary.com/browse/opinion https://www.dictionary.com/browse/opinion
        evandale 3y ago
        Can you please just summarize? There's way too many definitions and this isn't helpful. I gave you my opinion on what an opinion is, now why can't you return the favour instead of throwing thousands of words back in my face with no nuance or context? If you're not interested in the conversation that's fine too, but just say so.
        afavour 3y ago
        I won't be replying any further to this thread. Reading it back I had the realization that once we've gotten to the point where we're debating the meaning of the word "opinion" it is so far off-topic as to be useless to the discussion at hand, frankly. All the best.
        evandale 3y ago
        Alright, I thought I was trying to end the debate and find common ground but you didn't want to tell me in your own words the definition you use for opinion. You had me define it in my own words and was able to tell me I'm wrong but you never gave me the same chance. There's a reason why people throw their hands up and say "it's just my opinion!" when they're blatantly wrong about something. It's a phase used to indicate they don't care about facts and they don't have to defend their position, which I thought was the common definition of opinion: a position one holds even when the facts say they're wrong.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    An opinion is a belief which is not itself objectively factual. Factual information can certainly be a basis for them. If we go back the advertising example, we could take two objective facts about advertising: * online advertising allows consumers to learn about new products and services * advertising incentivizes user data collection in order that it may be more effective. From just these two facts one could easily come to a pro- or anti-advertising position based on their values and the relative weights they choose to put on each fact.
afavour 3y ago
OK, I guess we are being ultra-literal. Which is fine! > I'm in favour of more bike lanes in my city but I don't consider that an opinion ...I do not understand why not. To my perception that is very much the definition of an opinion. But anyway, we clearly have a bunch of different definitions in play here. I think we can safely agree to disagree.
- evandale 3y ago
  It's not an opinion because IMO you need a why for an opinion. There's an implicit why most of the time. But Facebook supporting marketing because they make more money with marketing can be a verified fact - there's no opinion element in it and I don't think Facebook supporting marketing by itself is an opinion. If you like rain because it waters your garden I'd hesitate to call that opinion because you have a factual reason. If you like rain because it sounds pleasant that's an opinion. If you like rain because it restores your chi it's (probably) an opinion. I say governments and corporations can't have opinions for lots of reasons. One of them being they're not people, others that follow from that, like you need thoughts or feelings to have an opinion. It just doesn't sit right with me having faceless entities publishing opinions because by definition opinions aren't based on facts and we have enough of a problem with regular people spreading misinformation.
  - afavour 3y ago
    Alright, this will be my last contribution here. But: To start, "I like rain" is a factual statement derived from your opinion, not an opinion itself. So let's change it for "rain is good": > If you think rain is good because it waters your garden I'd hesitate to call that opinion because you have a factual reason. > If you think rain is good because it sounds pleasant that's an opinion. You're making distinctions that don't exist. Thinking rain is good because it waters your garden is based on the fact that it will help your garden grow. Thinking rain is good because it sounds pleasant is based on the fact that you enjoy the sound of the rain. Both of these ignore counter-factuals. Sure, you think rain is good because it waters your garden, I think rain is bad because I live at the bottom of the hill and all that rainwater frequently floods my house. I think rain is bad because I dislike the sound. Your opinion is based on the fact most relevant to you, my opinion is based on the fact most relevant to me. Choosing which facts are most important is a personal choice that results in an opinion. They're all opinions! To finally bring the thing full circle: > But Facebook supporting marketing because they make more money with marketing can be a verified fact It is an opinion supported by fact. A Facebook exec could make the argument that they could make more money by dropping advertising and instead charge a monthly membership fee. There are definitely fewer facts available to back up that opinion but it would still be a valid one.
DropInIn 3y ago
It's pretty clear that your "reasoning" is based not in any logic but almost exclusively in your "feels"... You just dislike corps and it's undermining every thought you have on this topic.
- evandale 3y ago
  Mind telling me how it's clear that I dislike corporations? I'll proudly admit I have no trust in corporations, but dislike is a little far. There's corporations I like but there's no corporations I trust.
  - DropInIn 3y ago
    Any entity you distrust is also an entity that most reasonably fits into the classification of dislike. You may like thier products or services but that's not the same as liking the corp itself.
    - evandale 3y ago
      Trust and affection are two different emotions that I'm able to separate. For example, I like Adidas shoes but when they boast about sustainability I question the truth in that and their intentions. I prefer Pepsi over Coke but I don't trust either to be truthful in their marketing. I think it's bullshit that Santa prefers Coke, for one he's not even a real person, but I don't dislike Coke for using Santa as a mascot. I hate Disney though and I firmly believe they're among one of the worst companies on the planet. I oppose anything they do out of principle and believe every decision they make needs to answer yes to the question "Will this make us a billion dollars?" I hope to live to see the day they fold and disappear forever. So no, I don't dislike every corporation and my inherit distrust doesn't undermine my views one bit. I don't know how one can possibly trust a capitalist company whose motives are primarily profit driven. I don't know how one could think a company stands for anything that wouldn't make them money or would honestly have a goal that wasn't driven by profits. A good barometer on if a company has morals is if they use rainbow logos in Saudi Arabia during June. Try coming up with a single argument for why a company world proudly display them in North America but not in the Middle East without mentioning profits or market share, and good luck. I personally think it's completely indefensible.

emodendroket 3y ago

Your conception of what constitutes an “opinion” is different than any other one I’ve ever encountered.

evandale 3y ago
What's your conception of an opinion? To me am opinion is a belief you have that's not based on facts. Why do you want your government to have a belief not based on facts? Furthermore, why would you want the government to push this belief on its people? Lastly why would you care about the opinion (remember: an opinion is a belief that isn't based on facts) of a corporation to the point that you'd defend their right to make statements that aren't factual?
- afavour 3y ago
  > To me am opinion is a belief you have that's not based on facts. > Why do you want your government to have a belief not based on facts? There's some kind of fallacy at work here, you're establishing what your personal definition of something is then arguing with OP while taking your personal belief as fact. "Opinions are not based on facts" definitely isn't a universally accepted definition of an opinion. An opinion doesn't have to be based on facts but it's not precluded from it.
  - evandale 3y ago
    If there is a fallacy then you need tell me your definition of an opinion or the widely accepted definition. I can work with you if we have a common understanding but we're not at that point yet.
    - afavour 3y ago
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opinion https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opini... https://www.dictionary.com/browse/opinion https://www.dictionary.com/browse/opinion
      - evandale 3y ago
        Can you please just summarize? There's way too many definitions and this isn't helpful. I gave you my opinion on what an opinion is, now why can't you return the favour instead of throwing thousands of words back in my face with no nuance or context? If you're not interested in the conversation that's fine too, but just say so.
        afavour 3y ago
        I won't be replying any further to this thread. Reading it back I had the realization that once we've gotten to the point where we're debating the meaning of the word "opinion" it is so far off-topic as to be useless to the discussion at hand, frankly. All the best.
        evandale 3y ago
        Alright, I thought I was trying to end the debate and find common ground but you didn't want to tell me in your own words the definition you use for opinion. You had me define it in my own words and was able to tell me I'm wrong but you never gave me the same chance. There's a reason why people throw their hands up and say "it's just my opinion!" when they're blatantly wrong about something. It's a phase used to indicate they don't care about facts and they don't have to defend their position, which I thought was the common definition of opinion: a position one holds even when the facts say they're wrong.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  An opinion is a belief which is not itself objectively factual. Factual information can certainly be a basis for them. If we go back the advertising example, we could take two objective facts about advertising: * online advertising allows consumers to learn about new products and services * advertising incentivizes user data collection in order that it may be more effective. From just these two facts one could easily come to a pro- or anti-advertising position based on their values and the relative weights they choose to put on each fact.

afavour 3y ago

OK, I guess we are being ultra-literal. Which is fine! > I'm in favour of more bike lanes in my city but I don't consider that an opinion ...I do not understand why not. To my perception that is very much the definition of an opinion. But anyway, we clearly have a bunch of different definitions in play here. I think we can safely agree to disagree.

evandale 3y ago
It's not an opinion because IMO you need a why for an opinion. There's an implicit why most of the time. But Facebook supporting marketing because they make more money with marketing can be a verified fact - there's no opinion element in it and I don't think Facebook supporting marketing by itself is an opinion. If you like rain because it waters your garden I'd hesitate to call that opinion because you have a factual reason. If you like rain because it sounds pleasant that's an opinion. If you like rain because it restores your chi it's (probably) an opinion. I say governments and corporations can't have opinions for lots of reasons. One of them being they're not people, others that follow from that, like you need thoughts or feelings to have an opinion. It just doesn't sit right with me having faceless entities publishing opinions because by definition opinions aren't based on facts and we have enough of a problem with regular people spreading misinformation.
- afavour 3y ago
  Alright, this will be my last contribution here. But: To start, "I like rain" is a factual statement derived from your opinion, not an opinion itself. So let's change it for "rain is good": > If you think rain is good because it waters your garden I'd hesitate to call that opinion because you have a factual reason. > If you think rain is good because it sounds pleasant that's an opinion. You're making distinctions that don't exist. Thinking rain is good because it waters your garden is based on the fact that it will help your garden grow. Thinking rain is good because it sounds pleasant is based on the fact that you enjoy the sound of the rain. Both of these ignore counter-factuals. Sure, you think rain is good because it waters your garden, I think rain is bad because I live at the bottom of the hill and all that rainwater frequently floods my house. I think rain is bad because I dislike the sound. Your opinion is based on the fact most relevant to you, my opinion is based on the fact most relevant to me. Choosing which facts are most important is a personal choice that results in an opinion. They're all opinions! To finally bring the thing full circle: > But Facebook supporting marketing because they make more money with marketing can be a verified fact It is an opinion supported by fact. A Facebook exec could make the argument that they could make more money by dropping advertising and instead charge a monthly membership fee. There are definitely fewer facts available to back up that opinion but it would still be a valid one.

DropInIn 3y ago

It's pretty clear that your "reasoning" is based not in any logic but almost exclusively in your "feels"... You just dislike corps and it's undermining every thought you have on this topic.

evandale 3y ago
Mind telling me how it's clear that I dislike corporations? I'll proudly admit I have no trust in corporations, but dislike is a little far. There's corporations I like but there's no corporations I trust.
- DropInIn 3y ago
  Any entity you distrust is also an entity that most reasonably fits into the classification of dislike. You may like thier products or services but that's not the same as liking the corp itself.
  - evandale 3y ago
    Trust and affection are two different emotions that I'm able to separate. For example, I like Adidas shoes but when they boast about sustainability I question the truth in that and their intentions. I prefer Pepsi over Coke but I don't trust either to be truthful in their marketing. I think it's bullshit that Santa prefers Coke, for one he's not even a real person, but I don't dislike Coke for using Santa as a mascot. I hate Disney though and I firmly believe they're among one of the worst companies on the planet. I oppose anything they do out of principle and believe every decision they make needs to answer yes to the question "Will this make us a billion dollars?" I hope to live to see the day they fold and disappear forever. So no, I don't dislike every corporation and my inherit distrust doesn't undermine my views one bit. I don't know how one can possibly trust a capitalist company whose motives are primarily profit driven. I don't know how one could think a company stands for anything that wouldn't make them money or would honestly have a goal that wasn't driven by profits. A good barometer on if a company has morals is if they use rainbow logos in Saudi Arabia during June. Try coming up with a single argument for why a company world proudly display them in North America but not in the Middle East without mentioning profits or market share, and good luck. I personally think it's completely indefensible.