3 ms·

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

by causi 3y ago

MostlyStable 3y ago
Millions of internet pedants will leap at you for calling various American styles of pizza "pizza", since only the "traditional" Neapolitan/Roman style is "real" pizza (or a different internet pedant might declaim that only NY pizza is pizza). That standard honestly applied would preclude anything much farther back than 100 years. Now, I tend to think those internet pedants are boring and obnoxious, but the entire reason we have to have a discussion about the "myth of the national dish" is because of people like them. Once you decide that these things don't matter and food should just be enjoyed without caring about "authenticity" and that every tradition is only traditional in a certain context and time period, the whole idea of fighting about it kind of gets silly.
katbyte 3y ago
older, at least 2000 years now https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-pompeii.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-...
- anthk 3y ago
  Dishes similar to pizza (bread with stuff on top) existed across all of the Mediterranean since forever. Back in the day people had no proper phyisical dishes (read: recipients) and they just ate food on top of bread slices.
  - rombuu 3y ago
    Trenchers... but it was old bread and you didn't necessarily eat it. Or sometimes you gave it to the poor after your meal if you were being gregarious.
    - anthk 3y ago
      There wasn't something like "old bread" at old times except if it had mold on it. You just placed it near fire and made a toast of it, or you softened it either with wine or homemade liquors. If you were a loaded guy (not rich but the one who had a TV in the village in the 60's), you for sure culd acces milk at a daily pace.
mcphage 3y ago
> Pizza predates the use of the tomato. What makes it pizza specifically at that point?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nkozyra 3y ago
  Yeah, I find the idea that a flattened leavened (maybe?) bread with something on top is "pizza" to be quite a stretch.
  - Stratoscope 3y ago
    Some of my favorite pizzas have no tomato sauce: * White clam pizza * Amici's Milano or Trentino * State of Mind's Peas on Peas on Peas (when it's in season) Why would the lack of tomato sauce make it not a pizza? (You didn't specifically mention tomato sauce, but GP did and it sounds like you are in agreement? Please forgive me if I misunderstood.)
    - nkozyra 3y ago
      I'm saying Bread + topping is not inherently a pizza. There are lots of other dishes that are bread + topping that we don't call pizza. Is crostini a pizza? Is bruschetta? Is sabich? Is lahmacun? Arepas? Is an open face bagel with cream cheese?
      - Stratoscope 3y ago
        I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, bread + topping is by definition not pizza. Pizza is made with pizza dough and toppings, not with already-baked bread. Of course if the pizza dough is wrapped around the toppings/fillings, pinched around the edge in a half moon shape and then baked, now it is a calzone, not a pizza. Or is it an empanada? ;-) And thank you for that list! I have never had sabich or lahmacun, so you have given me some new things to try.
- 3y ago
jterrys 3y ago
Whats more interesting is how fish sauce or Garum fell out of favor.

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

by causi 3y ago

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

Millions of internet pedants will leap at you for calling various American styles of pizza "pizza", since only the "traditional" Neapolitan/Roman style is "real" pizza (or a different internet pedant might declaim that only NY pizza is pizza). That standard honestly applied would preclude anything much farther back than 100 years. Now, I tend to think those internet pedants are boring and obnoxious, but the entire reason we have to have a discussion about the "myth of the national dish" is because of people like them. Once you decide that these things don't matter and food should just be enjoyed without caring about "authenticity" and that every tradition is only traditional in a certain context and time period, the whole idea of fighting about it kind of gets silly.

katbyte 3y ago

older, at least 2000 years now https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-pompeii.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-...

anthk 3y ago
Dishes similar to pizza (bread with stuff on top) existed across all of the Mediterranean since forever. Back in the day people had no proper phyisical dishes (read: recipients) and they just ate food on top of bread slices.
- rombuu 3y ago
  Trenchers... but it was old bread and you didn't necessarily eat it. Or sometimes you gave it to the poor after your meal if you were being gregarious.
  - anthk 3y ago
    There wasn't something like "old bread" at old times except if it had mold on it. You just placed it near fire and made a toast of it, or you softened it either with wine or homemade liquors. If you were a loaded guy (not rich but the one who had a TV in the village in the 60's), you for sure culd acces milk at a daily pace.

mcphage 3y ago

> Pizza predates the use of the tomato. What makes it pizza specifically at that point?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nkozyra 3y ago
Yeah, I find the idea that a flattened leavened (maybe?) bread with something on top is "pizza" to be quite a stretch.
- Stratoscope 3y ago
  Some of my favorite pizzas have no tomato sauce: * White clam pizza * Amici's Milano or Trentino * State of Mind's Peas on Peas on Peas (when it's in season) Why would the lack of tomato sauce make it not a pizza? (You didn't specifically mention tomato sauce, but GP did and it sounds like you are in agreement? Please forgive me if I misunderstood.)
  - nkozyra 3y ago
    I'm saying Bread + topping is not inherently a pizza. There are lots of other dishes that are bread + topping that we don't call pizza. Is crostini a pizza? Is bruschetta? Is sabich? Is lahmacun? Arepas? Is an open face bagel with cream cheese?
    - Stratoscope 3y ago
      I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, bread + topping is by definition not pizza. Pizza is made with pizza dough and toppings, not with already-baked bread. Of course if the pizza dough is wrapped around the toppings/fillings, pinched around the edge in a half moon shape and then baked, now it is a calzone, not a pizza. Or is it an empanada? ;-) And thank you for that list! I have never had sabich or lahmacun, so you have given me some new things to try.
3y ago

jterrys 3y ago

Whats more interesting is how fish sauce or Garum fell out of favor.