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There are some Christians who don't recognize Mormonism or some other groups that call themselves Christian as Christians due to theological differences, mainl

by jowea 3y ago

There are some Christians who don't recognize Mormonism or some other groups that call themselves Christian as Christians due to theological differences, mainly about the Trinity IIRC. As for Abrahamic faiths, the obvious criteria to decide if it is Abrahamic or not is to see if they claim to worship the God of Abraham, which a quick Wikipedia check indicates they all do. What criteria do you believe correct and includes Judaism and Christianity but not any other?

andrewmcwatters 3y ago
I’m telling you that there are subjects that you should prefer domain-specific reading to in contrast to obtaining all of your information from Wikipedia. Some of it is straight up wrong, or edited by people with particular editorial priorities. In the case of religious readings from Wikipedia, much of it written from the secular perspective is straight up wrong. You could simply ask an educated, practicing Jew about Judaism and be more informed. They’d obviously be a practitioner anyway. In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. So which is it? Do you believe in the god of Abraham alone or not? This is just a casual example of scriptural violation. It’s trivial to point this out. You can’t be a serious scholar of faiths and consider such points of view without labeling them as syncretic religions.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. So which is it? Do you believe in the god of Abraham alone or not? The jewish faith once had a pantheon of gods. You've "no true scottsman"ed your way into saying the jewish faith is not Abrahamic.
  - andrewmcwatters 3y ago
    Once had? Go tell that to an Orthodox Jew, or you know, go read what they actually believe. There is no Jewish faith, to my knowledge, that ever had multiple gods. You're referring to Yahwism, which is a name and concept given by secular scholars trying to understand the origins of Judaism, but no such religion in-and-of-itself ever existed. It would be like national historians grouping the histories of Canada, The United States of America, and Mexico into some sort of "Peoples of Northern America" nation, which does not exist.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. Note that this is a complaint Muslims, some Jews, and some others direct at the Trinity, so...
  - andrewmcwatters 3y ago
    Sure, but the Trinity isn’t multiple gods.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      Well, yeah, that's what Christians claiming to be Abrahamic monotheists claim. Non-Christian Abrahamic monotheists often strenuously disagree. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Christian and believe the Trinity isn't multiple Gods (and neither is, say, the veneration of saints.) But I am also not gatekeeping clearly Abrahamic-in-descent faiths from the Abrahamic family tree on the basis of whether or not they posit the existence of entities that I consider incompatible with monotheism (both because “monotheism” is a separate descriptor from Abrahamic, and because evaluated monotheism is slippery.)
      - andrewmcwatters 3y ago
        We disagree on what is “clearly Abrahamic[…].” There is still no Jewish faith to my knowledge that is polytheistic. If you have material to share that provides evidence otherwise, I’d be interested in reading it, but Judaism isn’t Yahwism. That’s not gatekeeping, that’s… reading. Mono- and polytheism isn’t slippery. You either believe in one god or multiple gods. There’s little to dissect there.
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Well, someone's already brought up the Latter-Day Saint movement, which has interesting features: - LDS claim to be Christian - LDS claim to believe in the Trinity - LDS have added to Sacred Scripture and claim that Divine Revelation is ongoing - LDS are, in fact, henotheistic, which is a little bit of slip between mono- and poly-. LDS believe that God the Father, and Jesus as well, were once mortal beings who achieved *theosis*, becoming gods, and ruling their own planets, which is the same that LDS men can aspire to: becoming gods and rulers of planets in their own right, in the celestial kingdom, with their wives by their side. - LDS use a lot of the same words but with significantly different meanings. It is for this reason that Christians have judged the LDS baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", as a non-Christian, non-Trinitarian ceremony without effect, because even when using the same words, LDS are *saying and believing something entirely different*. - Joseph Smith established an interesting syncretism among Second Temple Judaism (as he understood it), Restorationist Christianity in the USA, and Freemasonry. Mormonism is Abrahamic, insofar as all those influences are Abrahamic as well, but nobody can rightly call Mormonism "monotheistic", given their doctrine of mortal men becoming gods.

by jowea 3y ago

andrewmcwatters 3y ago

I’m telling you that there are subjects that you should prefer domain-specific reading to in contrast to obtaining all of your information from Wikipedia. Some of it is straight up wrong, or edited by people with particular editorial priorities. In the case of religious readings from Wikipedia, much of it written from the secular perspective is straight up wrong. You could simply ask an educated, practicing Jew about Judaism and be more informed. They’d obviously be a practitioner anyway. In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. So which is it? Do you believe in the god of Abraham alone or not? This is just a casual example of scriptural violation. It’s trivial to point this out. You can’t be a serious scholar of faiths and consider such points of view without labeling them as syncretic religions.

mrguyorama 3y ago
>In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. So which is it? Do you believe in the god of Abraham alone or not? The jewish faith once had a pantheon of gods. You've "no true scottsman"ed your way into saying the jewish faith is not Abrahamic.
- andrewmcwatters 3y ago
  Once had? Go tell that to an Orthodox Jew, or you know, go read what they actually believe. There is no Jewish faith, to my knowledge, that ever had multiple gods. You're referring to Yahwism, which is a name and concept given by secular scholars trying to understand the origins of Judaism, but no such religion in-and-of-itself ever existed. It would be like national historians grouping the histories of Canada, The United States of America, and Mexico into some sort of "Peoples of Northern America" nation, which does not exist.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> In the case of these so-called “Abrahamic” religions, the scriptures of said origin religions talk about false gods, yet some of the ones you claim believe in multiple gods. Note that this is a complaint Muslims, some Jews, and some others direct at the Trinity, so...
- andrewmcwatters 3y ago
  Sure, but the Trinity isn’t multiple gods.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    Well, yeah, that's what Christians claiming to be Abrahamic monotheists claim. Non-Christian Abrahamic monotheists often strenuously disagree. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Christian and believe the Trinity isn't multiple Gods (and neither is, say, the veneration of saints.) But I am also not gatekeeping clearly Abrahamic-in-descent faiths from the Abrahamic family tree on the basis of whether or not they posit the existence of entities that I consider incompatible with monotheism (both because “monotheism” is a separate descriptor from Abrahamic, and because evaluated monotheism is slippery.)
    - andrewmcwatters 3y ago
      We disagree on what is “clearly Abrahamic[…].” There is still no Jewish faith to my knowledge that is polytheistic. If you have material to share that provides evidence otherwise, I’d be interested in reading it, but Judaism isn’t Yahwism. That’s not gatekeeping, that’s… reading. Mono- and polytheism isn’t slippery. You either believe in one god or multiple gods. There’s little to dissect there.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Well, someone's already brought up the Latter-Day Saint movement, which has interesting features: - LDS claim to be Christian - LDS claim to believe in the Trinity - LDS have added to Sacred Scripture and claim that Divine Revelation is ongoing - LDS are, in fact, henotheistic, which is a little bit of slip between mono- and poly-. LDS believe that God the Father, and Jesus as well, were once mortal beings who achieved *theosis*, becoming gods, and ruling their own planets, which is the same that LDS men can aspire to: becoming gods and rulers of planets in their own right, in the celestial kingdom, with their wives by their side. - LDS use a lot of the same words but with significantly different meanings. It is for this reason that Christians have judged the LDS baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", as a non-Christian, non-Trinitarian ceremony without effect, because even when using the same words, LDS are *saying and believing something entirely different*. - Joseph Smith established an interesting syncretism among Second Temple Judaism (as he understood it), Restorationist Christianity in the USA, and Freemasonry. Mormonism is Abrahamic, insofar as all those influences are Abrahamic as well, but nobody can rightly call Mormonism "monotheistic", given their doctrine of mortal men becoming gods.