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But Flaherty specifically didn’t get what he wanted (that’s why he was mad!) so I think it’s misleading to say the power only goes from government to Facebook.

But Flaherty specifically didn’t get what he wanted (that’s why he was mad!) so I think it’s misleading to say the power only goes from government to Facebook. If anything this example shows the exact opposite with Flaherty sending indignant anger in the other direction.

efitz 3y ago
> If anything this example shows the exact opposite with Flaherty sending indignant anger in the other direction. I don’t see how you got there. I see literal demands for action in the tone of someone giving orders to a subordinate.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  I mean, it's also the tone of a kid not getting what they want from their non-subordinate parent.
- afavour 3y ago
  I invite you to have a conversation with my six year old child and then reflect upon the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they are vocalised.
  - peteradio 3y ago
    Your toddler doesn't represent the United States Government.
    - freedude 3y ago
      You make a good point. The United States Government is more like a demanding toddler throwing a tantrum than a 6 year old throwing a tantrum. The difference is the 6 year old is potty trained.
    - afavour 3y ago
      What impact does that have on the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they’re vocalised?
      - peteradio 3y ago
        You don't see a difference between a toddler being demanding with a parent and the federal government demanding something of a corporation? What kind of Republican's wet dream do you live in where those power dynamics are akin?
        tekknik 3y ago
        > What kind of Republican's wet dream do you live in where those power dynamics are akin? Have we already forgotten that it’s the left pushing for the censorship? When will the left quit trying to flamebait and start focusing on repairing the divisions caused by attempting to demonize the other side.
        peteradio 3y ago
        You misunderstand my point.
        tekknik 3y ago
        No, I ignored your point because you reduced it to name calling. There’s a difference. Quit being a democrat, my point stands.
- snowwrestler 3y ago
  Yes but what you don’t see is the many many requests in the same tone that come into social media (and traditional media!) companies from corporations, celebrities, even regular old citizens who are mad their drunk driving arrest got reported (for example). The idea that an imperious tone somehow proves a power imbalance is hilarious to anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of these requests from regular people. “I demand an answer right now” is what angry diners say when a restaurant runs of the special. It’s the tone that people adopt to imply power when they don’t actually have power, but want to seem like they do. Which is a common, and legal, mode of speaking in everyday life.
  - uLogMicheal 3y ago
    This is not talking about "regular old citizens". This is the government and the government has power. Your comment is basically a Straw man.
    - joshuamorton 3y ago
      No, the point of the comment is that the government didn't have power in this situation.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      The government has power. Craig the office drone asking for "misinformation" to be taken down at behest of his boss does not have the power "The government" does. Or am I now supposed to believe that if you anger Sheila at the DMV the IRS will audit you?
      - melony 3y ago
        > The government has power. Craig the office drone asking for "misinformation" to be taken down at behest of his boss does not have the power "The government" does. Or am I now supposed to believe that if you anger Sheila at the DMV the IRS will audit you? Craig's boss is the highest executive power in the country. Most of their work is handled by aides and subordinates like Craig, with authority delegated from their office. The boss only directly makes the important decisions. You are being disingenuous by claiming Craig is a innocent, powerless trigger-happy drone. And if you have lived in small towns, expect to receive worse service or discrimination from Sheila in future. The highest power in the country cannot be held to the same standard as a county clerk (and frankly speaking, most DMV employees need more training in customer service and have their compensation tied to overall productivity and performance, lots of fat to be trimmed there, both literal and metaphorical).
- Zetice 3y ago
  And I see refusal to follow those orders from a person who recognizes they're not a subordinate.
- p_j_w 3y ago
  Are they subordinate if they can disobey those order with no reprecussions?
  - didntcheck 3y ago
    Is a demand not still inappropriate even if it's correctly rebuffed? If I ask for someone to violate policy at work and they refuse, I can still expect I might be investigated on the basis of the attempt I mean, sure, in terms of jurisprudence here the lack of actual tort may indeed mean that there is no legal outcome, but evidence a desire to do something is a pretty good justification for investigating if there were cases where you did do it. And in the court of public opinion, it's very damning. I certainly won't be saying "no harm, no foul"
    - p_j_w 3y ago
      Maybe, but calling them a subordinate is still misleading as fuck.
causi 3y ago
I don't see why one's judgment of the situation should depend on whether the government was successful in intimidating Facebook. What matters is that they tried.
- Zetice 3y ago
  Coercion requires a stick, I see no stick here. The judge literally cited Biden saying, "they're killing people" as coercion, which is a bald-faced lie.
  - causi 3y ago
    Do implied threats count as coercion? Does a threatening tone? Does someone in a position of power making demands they don't actually have the power to enforce count as coercion? I don't know. The judge seems to think they do.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      What implied threats, what threatening tone? What position of power? If you read the examples cited, nothing even remotely comes close to a layperson interpretation of coercion, and I believe the legal definition is more rigorous, not less.
      - causi 3y ago
        Therefore, the question is not what decision the social-media company would have made, but whether the Government “so involved itself in the private party’s conduct” that the decision is essentially that of the Government. The government asking them to remove specific posts and accounts and demote others is pretty clearly that.
        mrguyorama 3y ago
        How so? If someone asks me for something, and I have EXPLICIT LEGAL PROTECTION TO SAY NO, how coercive should that be to me?
patapong 3y ago
In my opinion thr government should not even try to influence public speech, irrespective of whether it succeeds or not.

efitz 3y ago

> If anything this example shows the exact opposite with Flaherty sending indignant anger in the other direction. I don’t see how you got there. I see literal demands for action in the tone of someone giving orders to a subordinate.

ceejayoz 3y ago
I mean, it's also the tone of a kid not getting what they want from their non-subordinate parent.
afavour 3y ago
I invite you to have a conversation with my six year old child and then reflect upon the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they are vocalised.
- peteradio 3y ago
  Your toddler doesn't represent the United States Government.
  - freedude 3y ago
    You make a good point. The United States Government is more like a demanding toddler throwing a tantrum than a 6 year old throwing a tantrum. The difference is the 6 year old is potty trained.
  - afavour 3y ago
    What impact does that have on the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they’re vocalised?
    - peteradio 3y ago
      You don't see a difference between a toddler being demanding with a parent and the federal government demanding something of a corporation? What kind of Republican's wet dream do you live in where those power dynamics are akin?
      - tekknik 3y ago
        > What kind of Republican's wet dream do you live in where those power dynamics are akin? Have we already forgotten that it’s the left pushing for the censorship? When will the left quit trying to flamebait and start focusing on repairing the divisions caused by attempting to demonize the other side.
        peteradio 3y ago
        You misunderstand my point.
        tekknik 3y ago
        No, I ignored your point because you reduced it to name calling. There’s a difference. Quit being a democrat, my point stands.
snowwrestler 3y ago
Yes but what you don’t see is the many many requests in the same tone that come into social media (and traditional media!) companies from corporations, celebrities, even regular old citizens who are mad their drunk driving arrest got reported (for example). The idea that an imperious tone somehow proves a power imbalance is hilarious to anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of these requests from regular people. “I demand an answer right now” is what angry diners say when a restaurant runs of the special. It’s the tone that people adopt to imply power when they don’t actually have power, but want to seem like they do. Which is a common, and legal, mode of speaking in everyday life.
- uLogMicheal 3y ago
  This is not talking about "regular old citizens". This is the government and the government has power. Your comment is basically a Straw man.
  - joshuamorton 3y ago
    No, the point of the comment is that the government didn't have power in this situation.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    The government has power. Craig the office drone asking for "misinformation" to be taken down at behest of his boss does not have the power "The government" does. Or am I now supposed to believe that if you anger Sheila at the DMV the IRS will audit you?
    - melony 3y ago
      > The government has power. Craig the office drone asking for "misinformation" to be taken down at behest of his boss does not have the power "The government" does. Or am I now supposed to believe that if you anger Sheila at the DMV the IRS will audit you? Craig's boss is the highest executive power in the country. Most of their work is handled by aides and subordinates like Craig, with authority delegated from their office. The boss only directly makes the important decisions. You are being disingenuous by claiming Craig is a innocent, powerless trigger-happy drone. And if you have lived in small towns, expect to receive worse service or discrimination from Sheila in future. The highest power in the country cannot be held to the same standard as a county clerk (and frankly speaking, most DMV employees need more training in customer service and have their compensation tied to overall productivity and performance, lots of fat to be trimmed there, both literal and metaphorical).
Zetice 3y ago
And I see refusal to follow those orders from a person who recognizes they're not a subordinate.
p_j_w 3y ago
Are they subordinate if they can disobey those order with no reprecussions?
- didntcheck 3y ago
  Is a demand not still inappropriate even if it's correctly rebuffed? If I ask for someone to violate policy at work and they refuse, I can still expect I might be investigated on the basis of the attempt I mean, sure, in terms of jurisprudence here the lack of actual tort may indeed mean that there is no legal outcome, but evidence a desire to do something is a pretty good justification for investigating if there were cases where you did do it. And in the court of public opinion, it's very damning. I certainly won't be saying "no harm, no foul"
  - p_j_w 3y ago
    Maybe, but calling them a subordinate is still misleading as fuck.

causi 3y ago

I don't see why one's judgment of the situation should depend on whether the government was successful in intimidating Facebook. What matters is that they tried.

Zetice 3y ago
Coercion requires a stick, I see no stick here. The judge literally cited Biden saying, "they're killing people" as coercion, which is a bald-faced lie.
- causi 3y ago
  Do implied threats count as coercion? Does a threatening tone? Does someone in a position of power making demands they don't actually have the power to enforce count as coercion? I don't know. The judge seems to think they do.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    What implied threats, what threatening tone? What position of power? If you read the examples cited, nothing even remotely comes close to a layperson interpretation of coercion, and I believe the legal definition is more rigorous, not less.
    - causi 3y ago
      Therefore, the question is not what decision the social-media company would have made, but whether the Government “so involved itself in the private party’s conduct” that the decision is essentially that of the Government. The government asking them to remove specific posts and accounts and demote others is pretty clearly that.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        How so? If someone asks me for something, and I have EXPLICIT LEGAL PROTECTION TO SAY NO, how coercive should that be to me?

patapong 3y ago

In my opinion thr government should not even try to influence public speech, irrespective of whether it succeeds or not.