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I'd beg to disagree. The track record of secularism from the French revolution, to empire and idealogy had quite a lot of blood on it's hands. The body count is

by Guthur 3y ago

I'd beg to disagree. The track record of secularism from the French revolution, to empire and idealogy had quite a lot of blood on it's hands. The body count is most certainly not skewed to religion by any stretch.

areoform 3y ago
We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with entities that have killed in spasms of violence with no apparent public casus belli than "my book is better than your book and it told me to do so?" Spasms that, in one set of instances, led to the deaths of a significant fraction of the global population? “Estimates of the number of people killed in the Crusades begin at 1 million (Wertham…) and go as high as 9 million (Robertson…) passing through 3 million (Garrison…) and 5 million (Elson…) along the way. I took the low middle (Garrison’s estimate) as my estimate. The geometric means of the extremes is 3 million.” Matthew White, The Great Big Book of Horrible Things: The Definitive Chronicle of History’s 100 Worst Atrocities (2012), p. 576 (see f.n. 1 under The Crusades). Or, the religiously affirmed divine right fascists felt during WW2 to rule others as decreed by their holy men? NAZI 'DIVINE RIGHT' TO RULE ASSERTED; Dr. Ley Says Reich's 'Mission' to Dominate Other Nations Is Among War Aims WOULD WIPE OUT BRITAIN 'Annihilation' of Obstacle to German Destiny Demanded by Labor Front Head https://www.nytimes.com/1939/12/19/archives/nazi-divine-right-to-rule-asserted-dr-ley-says-reichs-mission-to.html https://www.nytimes.com/1939/12/19/archives/nazi-divine-righ... Or, doctrines like "Manifest Destiny" that were religious in origin and preached in church? http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/mandestiny.htm http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo... The only way to end the cycle of violence is by embracing the scientific method, rationality, and empathy. Anything else is a step to madness. Voltaire said it best, There have been people who once said, you believe incomprehensible, contradictory, impossible things, because we have ordered you to do so; therefore do unjust things because we order you to do so. These people reasoned wonderfully. Certainly, whoever has the right to make you absurd has the right to make you unjust. Or, more succinctly, as Desmond MacCarthy put it via a fictional Voltaire, Ah, my child, as long as people continue to believe absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities! We must fight irrational lunacy and ensure that the light of enlightenment doesn't die out.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. I would say we live in the most widespread Uneasy Peace in human history. And unlike religious peace which had occasional conflicts, a break in the peace now would mean annihilation. Is general peace, risk of annihilation better than occasional petty wars without annihilation? > And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with entities that have killed in spasms of violence with no apparent public casus belli than "my book is better than your book and it told me to do so?" I quoted The Washington Post's opinion, which is hardly the number most favorable to religious causes. Plus, older books had higher numbers than newer scholarship. https://apholt.com/2019/02/19/modern-scholars-on-the-casualty-rates-for-participants-of-the-first-crusade/ https://apholt.com/2019/02/19/modern-scholars-on-the-casualt... https://apholt.com/2019/01/30/death-estimates-for-the-crusades/ https://apholt.com/2019/01/30/death-estimates-for-the-crusad... > NAZI 'DIVINE RIGHT' TO RULE ASSERTED; Dr. Ley Says Reich's 'Mission' to Dominate Other Nations Is Among War Aims WOULD WIPE OUT BRITAIN 'Annihilation' of Obstacle to German Destiny Demanded by Labor Front Head Well, considering that they murdered priests and pastors in their camps, were they really friendly to religion? Particularly Catholic Priests, who represented 94% of the clergy they executed. > Or, doctrines like "Manifest Destiny" that were religious in origin and preached in church? Let's not confuse Protestant fundamentalism motivated by political ends with religion in general. > The only way to end the cycle of violence is by embracing the scientific method, rationality, and empathy. Anything else is a step to madness. So said the French Revolution. They did everything they could to break away from religion - they even invented a new calendar starting at year 0 because... anyway. Didn't go so well, there were a few smaller revolutions afterward to get to modern France.
  - LexiMax 3y ago
    > Let's not confuse Protestant fundamentalism motivated by political ends with religion in general. This is the rule, not the exception. Throughout history, instances where religious war was waged or religious atrocities occurred, there was often an underlying political logic to them. Religion has less to do with the underlying morality of the scripture and more to do with what religious leaders of the time say it is, and their interpretation can be...flexible. > So said the French Revolution. What followed the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars was one of the most peaceful 99 years on the European continent since Pax Romana.
freedomben 3y ago
You seem to be inferring an argument in GP that they didn't make - that secularism is has no blood on it's hands. Of course it does. This does not mean that religion is innocent. That is a fallacy. They are not mutually exclusive. People can do terrible things when guided by religious faith, or when guided by a secular "faith." Both are bad and should be called out.

by Guthur 3y ago

areoform 3y ago

We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with entities that have killed in spasms of violence with no apparent public casus belli than "my book is better than your book and it told me to do so?" Spasms that, in one set of instances, led to the deaths of a significant fraction of the global population? “Estimates of the number of people killed in the Crusades begin at 1 million (Wertham…) and go as high as 9 million (Robertson…) passing through 3 million (Garrison…) and 5 million (Elson…) along the way. I took the low middle (Garrison’s estimate) as my estimate. The geometric means of the extremes is 3 million.” Matthew White, The Great Big Book of Horrible Things: The Definitive Chronicle of History’s 100 Worst Atrocities (2012), p. 576 (see f.n. 1 under The Crusades). Or, the religiously affirmed divine right fascists felt during WW2 to rule others as decreed by their holy men? NAZI 'DIVINE RIGHT' TO RULE ASSERTED; Dr. Ley Says Reich's 'Mission' to Dominate Other Nations Is Among War Aims WOULD WIPE OUT BRITAIN 'Annihilation' of Obstacle to German Destiny Demanded by Labor Front Head https://www.nytimes.com/1939/12/19/archives/nazi-divine-right-to-rule-asserted-dr-ley-says-reichs-mission-to.html https://www.nytimes.com/1939/12/19/archives/nazi-divine-righ... Or, doctrines like "Manifest Destiny" that were religious in origin and preached in church? http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/mandestiny.htm http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo... The only way to end the cycle of violence is by embracing the scientific method, rationality, and empathy. Anything else is a step to madness. Voltaire said it best, There have been people who once said, you believe incomprehensible, contradictory, impossible things, because we have ordered you to do so; therefore do unjust things because we order you to do so. These people reasoned wonderfully. Certainly, whoever has the right to make you absurd has the right to make you unjust. Or, more succinctly, as Desmond MacCarthy put it via a fictional Voltaire, Ah, my child, as long as people continue to believe absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities! We must fight irrational lunacy and ensure that the light of enlightenment doesn't die out.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. I would say we live in the most widespread Uneasy Peace in human history. And unlike religious peace which had occasional conflicts, a break in the peace now would mean annihilation. Is general peace, risk of annihilation better than occasional petty wars without annihilation? > And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with entities that have killed in spasms of violence with no apparent public casus belli than "my book is better than your book and it told me to do so?" I quoted The Washington Post's opinion, which is hardly the number most favorable to religious causes. Plus, older books had higher numbers than newer scholarship. https://apholt.com/2019/02/19/modern-scholars-on-the-casualty-rates-for-participants-of-the-first-crusade/ https://apholt.com/2019/02/19/modern-scholars-on-the-casualt... https://apholt.com/2019/01/30/death-estimates-for-the-crusades/ https://apholt.com/2019/01/30/death-estimates-for-the-crusad... > NAZI 'DIVINE RIGHT' TO RULE ASSERTED; Dr. Ley Says Reich's 'Mission' to Dominate Other Nations Is Among War Aims WOULD WIPE OUT BRITAIN 'Annihilation' of Obstacle to German Destiny Demanded by Labor Front Head Well, considering that they murdered priests and pastors in their camps, were they really friendly to religion? Particularly Catholic Priests, who represented 94% of the clergy they executed. > Or, doctrines like "Manifest Destiny" that were religious in origin and preached in church? Let's not confuse Protestant fundamentalism motivated by political ends with religion in general. > The only way to end the cycle of violence is by embracing the scientific method, rationality, and empathy. Anything else is a step to madness. So said the French Revolution. They did everything they could to break away from religion - they even invented a new calendar starting at year 0 because... anyway. Didn't go so well, there were a few smaller revolutions afterward to get to modern France.
- LexiMax 3y ago
  > Let's not confuse Protestant fundamentalism motivated by political ends with religion in general. This is the rule, not the exception. Throughout history, instances where religious war was waged or religious atrocities occurred, there was often an underlying political logic to them. Religion has less to do with the underlying morality of the scripture and more to do with what religious leaders of the time say it is, and their interpretation can be...flexible. > So said the French Revolution. What followed the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars was one of the most peaceful 99 years on the European continent since Pax Romana.

freedomben 3y ago

You seem to be inferring an argument in GP that they didn't make - that secularism is has no blood on it's hands. Of course it does. This does not mean that religion is innocent. That is a fallacy. They are not mutually exclusive. People can do terrible things when guided by religious faith, or when guided by a secular "faith." Both are bad and should be called out.