5 ms·

> It started moving years ago. Everyone on every side escalates, citing the other side. Only one side decided to give a country that was part of the NPP until

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> It started moving years ago. Everyone on every side escalates, citing the other side. Only one side decided to give a country that was part of the NPP until it removed itself from it nuclear weapons in an attempt to try and escalate the war in Ukraine and threaten western Europe with nuclear weapons.

EGreg 3y ago
“Only one side did X” (nevermind that X is incoherent or doesnt make grammatical sense) “And therefore what? You have done 10X just recently” “but that’s whataboutism, and the topic was the other guys, not us” “But don’t you see that each side thinks the other can’t be trusted and the victory must be total or else they’ll come back later?” “If we have nuclear WW3, just remember, it was all Russia’s fault. They had an unprovoked and unjustified invasion. That’s what matters. And there will be no deescalation until they are 100% defeated.” Ok, and do you have a plan B?
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > “If we have nuclear WW3, just remember, it was all Russia’s fault. They had an unprovoked and unjustified invasion. That’s what matters. And there will be no deescalation until they are 100% defeated.” The west has been delaying weapons for months over fears of escalation. The west is the only one who has tried to avoid escalation, what has Russia done to try and avoid escalation?. > Ok, and do you have a plan B? Your plan B is to just sacrifice Ukraine to the altar of Russia. You continually claim to be "evenhanded" yet spout nearly entirely Russian talking points. We must stop Russia unless we want to see more nuclear terrorism in the future. If we don't stop Russia now despite its threats of nuclear war, the world will under a rapid increase of countries with active nuclear weapons programs and weapons themselves. Ostensively to protect themselves from countries like Russia who would have successfully used the threat of nuclear weapons to force the world to not help Ukraine defend itself.
  - EGreg 3y ago
    > The west is the only one who has tried to avoid escalation, Hahaha. Expanding NATO multiple times. Buzzing Russian airspace. Regime-changing its neighbors. Releasing hordes of sunni Jihadists to topple its “last remaining ally in the region”, forcing Russia to commit its troops to “barely hold it together by a thread”. > what has Russia done to try and avoid escalation?. Oh far more than the US. Constantly appeal on the United Nations security council (just as they futitely tried to prevent the invasion of Iraq), and comtinually for years stress and warn that Ukraine in NATO is an unacceptable red line in public speeches that US media refuses to broadcast (unless they can take a tiny clip out of context). Propose agreements. Engage in diplomacy involving multiple nations. Send cheap resources to Ukraine. Ask them nicely to, like, restore drinking water (a human right) to Crimea. What did the US do to, say, avert the war in Yemen or Ukraine? They seemed to do everything to prevent deescalation. What was USA doing getting involved in regime change halfway around the world anyway? Oh that’s always off-topic. Suppose Russia wanted to do everything you and US propaganda claims to Ukraine (up to and including apparently, genociding all Ukrainians, restoring the Soviet Union or whatever is asserted and critically accepted, just like “weapons of mass destruction” and “they hate us for our freedoms”) Then why did they not invade in 2015? Why wait 8 years? The only answer I got here is “well Russians are strange”. You have it exactly backwards. If we didn’t expand NATO and train Ukrainian paramilitaries to kill Russians, then the worst that would happen is Ukraine would implement the Minsk II agreements, and its fate would have been even better than Georgia after 2008. As for nuclear proliferation, Trump and GOP killed the Iran deal, Bush and GOP killed the Agreed Framework, both North Korea and Iran would have not gotten nukes IF THE US WOULD SIMPLY COMMIT TO DIPLOMACY AND KEEPING ITS AGREEMENTS. Also, if Russia did nothing, rather than arming rebels, they would probably have been far better off. I criticize both Russia and USA both as imperialists. You criticize Russia BUT NOT USA. That’s the difference.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > Expanding NATO multiple times. No matter how many times you say this it doesn't make it escalatory. Why do you (and other pro Russians) view an alliance that effectively was created to combat Russian aggression view its expansion as aggression against Russia. I'll quote someone to tell you why. >>> Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic wars against the countries that they wish to subjugate. >>> No one should care what Russia thinks, it's clear not allowing countries like Georgia and Ukraine into NATO just causes Russia to invade them anyway https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36597883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36597883 > Oh I dunno, appeal on the United Nations security council (just as they futitely tried to prevent the invasion of Iraq), in public speeches that US media refuses to broadcast (unless they can take a tiny clip out of context). The UN uploads all of there clips to YouTube yet your claim is unsourced. > Suppose Russia wanted to do everything you and US propaganda claims to Ukraine (up to and including apparently, genociding all Ukrainians, restoring the Soviet Union or whatever is asserted and critically accepted, just like “weapons of mass destruction” and “they hate us for our freedoms”) This isn't a claim by me but rather by the Russian TV I'll link the video. https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1531301883628986368 https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/153130188362898636... > Then why did they not invade in 2015? Why wait 8 years? The only answer I got here is “well Russians are strange”. > If we didn’t expand NATO and train Ukrainian paramilitaries to kill Russians You keep using these words like it's some sort of gotcha. The Ukrainians are being trained to defend their home from an imperialistic invasion against from a country that talks about how many millions of them they will have to kill to subjugate them. Talks about how they aren't a real country with a real culture and really just Russian lands that have been unjustly taken from them. > then the worst that would happen is Ukraine would implement the Minsk II agreements, and its fate would have been even better than Georgia after 2008 Why would Ukraine implement Minks II when Russia violated Minsk I and the Budapest Memorandum?. Did Russia pinky promise that this one time specifically they will actually follow the treaties they sign? Or was it another step out of Russias playbook to try and freeze the war in a way that was advantageous to them?. > Also, if Russia did nothing, rather than arming rebels, they would probably have been far better off. They did a lot more than arming rebels as Igor Strelkov says. > At the start of this summer, 90 percent of the rebel forces were made up of local residents, Strelkov was quoted as saying. However, by early August, Russian servicemen supposedly on "vacation" from the army had begun to arrive, he said. > According to Strelkov, the assault on the Black Sea town of Mariupol in September, which prompted concerns in Ukraine and the West that Russia has entered the conflict on a large scale, was conducted mostly by the Russian military "vacationers." > I criticize both Russia and USA both as imperialists. You criticize Russia BUT NOT USA. That’s the difference. 90% of your content is devoted to criticising America and down playing Russias involvement I the war. Hell you won't even admit the Russian army was involved in Donbas's in 2014, then the person who was the _leader of the breakaway region_ tells you they where.

by _kbh_ 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

“Only one side did X” (nevermind that X is incoherent or doesnt make grammatical sense) “And therefore what? You have done 10X just recently” “but that’s whataboutism, and the topic was the other guys, not us” “But don’t you see that each side thinks the other can’t be trusted and the victory must be total or else they’ll come back later?” “If we have nuclear WW3, just remember, it was all Russia’s fault. They had an unprovoked and unjustified invasion. That’s what matters. And there will be no deescalation until they are 100% defeated.” Ok, and do you have a plan B?

_kbh_ 3y ago
> “If we have nuclear WW3, just remember, it was all Russia’s fault. They had an unprovoked and unjustified invasion. That’s what matters. And there will be no deescalation until they are 100% defeated.” The west has been delaying weapons for months over fears of escalation. The west is the only one who has tried to avoid escalation, what has Russia done to try and avoid escalation?. > Ok, and do you have a plan B? Your plan B is to just sacrifice Ukraine to the altar of Russia. You continually claim to be "evenhanded" yet spout nearly entirely Russian talking points. We must stop Russia unless we want to see more nuclear terrorism in the future. If we don't stop Russia now despite its threats of nuclear war, the world will under a rapid increase of countries with active nuclear weapons programs and weapons themselves. Ostensively to protect themselves from countries like Russia who would have successfully used the threat of nuclear weapons to force the world to not help Ukraine defend itself.
- EGreg 3y ago
  > The west is the only one who has tried to avoid escalation, Hahaha. Expanding NATO multiple times. Buzzing Russian airspace. Regime-changing its neighbors. Releasing hordes of sunni Jihadists to topple its “last remaining ally in the region”, forcing Russia to commit its troops to “barely hold it together by a thread”. > what has Russia done to try and avoid escalation?. Oh far more than the US. Constantly appeal on the United Nations security council (just as they futitely tried to prevent the invasion of Iraq), and comtinually for years stress and warn that Ukraine in NATO is an unacceptable red line in public speeches that US media refuses to broadcast (unless they can take a tiny clip out of context). Propose agreements. Engage in diplomacy involving multiple nations. Send cheap resources to Ukraine. Ask them nicely to, like, restore drinking water (a human right) to Crimea. What did the US do to, say, avert the war in Yemen or Ukraine? They seemed to do everything to prevent deescalation. What was USA doing getting involved in regime change halfway around the world anyway? Oh that’s always off-topic. Suppose Russia wanted to do everything you and US propaganda claims to Ukraine (up to and including apparently, genociding all Ukrainians, restoring the Soviet Union or whatever is asserted and critically accepted, just like “weapons of mass destruction” and “they hate us for our freedoms”) Then why did they not invade in 2015? Why wait 8 years? The only answer I got here is “well Russians are strange”. You have it exactly backwards. If we didn’t expand NATO and train Ukrainian paramilitaries to kill Russians, then the worst that would happen is Ukraine would implement the Minsk II agreements, and its fate would have been even better than Georgia after 2008. As for nuclear proliferation, Trump and GOP killed the Iran deal, Bush and GOP killed the Agreed Framework, both North Korea and Iran would have not gotten nukes IF THE US WOULD SIMPLY COMMIT TO DIPLOMACY AND KEEPING ITS AGREEMENTS. Also, if Russia did nothing, rather than arming rebels, they would probably have been far better off. I criticize both Russia and USA both as imperialists. You criticize Russia BUT NOT USA. That’s the difference.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Expanding NATO multiple times. No matter how many times you say this it doesn't make it escalatory. Why do you (and other pro Russians) view an alliance that effectively was created to combat Russian aggression view its expansion as aggression against Russia. I'll quote someone to tell you why. >>> Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic wars against the countries that they wish to subjugate. >>> No one should care what Russia thinks, it's clear not allowing countries like Georgia and Ukraine into NATO just causes Russia to invade them anyway https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36597883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36597883 > Oh I dunno, appeal on the United Nations security council (just as they futitely tried to prevent the invasion of Iraq), in public speeches that US media refuses to broadcast (unless they can take a tiny clip out of context). The UN uploads all of there clips to YouTube yet your claim is unsourced. > Suppose Russia wanted to do everything you and US propaganda claims to Ukraine (up to and including apparently, genociding all Ukrainians, restoring the Soviet Union or whatever is asserted and critically accepted, just like “weapons of mass destruction” and “they hate us for our freedoms”) This isn't a claim by me but rather by the Russian TV I'll link the video. https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1531301883628986368 https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/153130188362898636... > Then why did they not invade in 2015? Why wait 8 years? The only answer I got here is “well Russians are strange”. > If we didn’t expand NATO and train Ukrainian paramilitaries to kill Russians You keep using these words like it's some sort of gotcha. The Ukrainians are being trained to defend their home from an imperialistic invasion against from a country that talks about how many millions of them they will have to kill to subjugate them. Talks about how they aren't a real country with a real culture and really just Russian lands that have been unjustly taken from them. > then the worst that would happen is Ukraine would implement the Minsk II agreements, and its fate would have been even better than Georgia after 2008 Why would Ukraine implement Minks II when Russia violated Minsk I and the Budapest Memorandum?. Did Russia pinky promise that this one time specifically they will actually follow the treaties they sign? Or was it another step out of Russias playbook to try and freeze the war in a way that was advantageous to them?. > Also, if Russia did nothing, rather than arming rebels, they would probably have been far better off. They did a lot more than arming rebels as Igor Strelkov says. > At the start of this summer, 90 percent of the rebel forces were made up of local residents, Strelkov was quoted as saying. However, by early August, Russian servicemen supposedly on "vacation" from the army had begun to arrive, he said. > According to Strelkov, the assault on the Black Sea town of Mariupol in September, which prompted concerns in Ukraine and the West that Russia has entered the conflict on a large scale, was conducted mostly by the Russian military "vacationers." > I criticize both Russia and USA both as imperialists. You criticize Russia BUT NOT USA. That’s the difference. 90% of your content is devoted to criticising America and down playing Russias involvement I the war. Hell you won't even admit the Russian army was involved in Donbas's in 2014, then the person who was the _leader of the breakaway region_ tells you they where.