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It’s such a depressing situation. Steve Huffman got caught red handed making up lies about Apollo’s dev for no reason whatsoever. I wish I was exaggerating. Ev

It’s such a depressing situation. Steve Huffman got caught red handed making up lies about Apollo’s dev for no reason whatsoever. I wish I was exaggerating. Every time I try to describe the event, it ends up sounding like low quality flamebait. Yet it’s a complete description of what happened. He never acknowledged it, either. It was just evil. Usually there are confounding factors or reasons to be on the founder’s side, or to at least see the situation from their point of view. But in this case, it was a blatant lie. The most charitable explanation I’ve ever been able to think of is “maybe Huffman literally forgot that he misunderstood the Apollo dev because he was so stressed.” But eventually I concluded that requires so much mental gymnastics that I may as well compete at the Olympics. And even in that situation, he should’ve said something. Huffman was a part of the original YC batch. There were no YC alums before him. This was the era when pg wrote “Don’t be evil”, which was at least a good idea, if not an implicit guideline to all founders. And then this happens a decade and some change later.

mcpackieh 3y ago
Memory can be a funny thing, people repeat stories to themselves to keep memories fresh, but with each retelling the story can shift. "I thought he threatened me but then he clarified that he didn't" could turn into "He seemed to threaten me, but then chickened out when I confronted him" His memory of admitting he made an error could turn into a memory of still feeling threatened but trying to let the Apollo dev save face. All this is to say that Steve Huffman might not be deliberately lying in this instance. Maybe. It's hard to give him too much credit since he's already shown himself to be a snake who edits other people's comments and that's certainly not something that could be done by accident. Nonetheless, memory is a funny thing.
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  Agreed, and I went down that road too. Unfortunately what sealed it for me was Steve’s response during his followup AMA when someone asked him about the Apollo dev. He said that the dev often said one thing and did another. Christian (the dev) called him out on it and said “I give you permission to name a single time this has happened.” No response. In other words, Steve doubled down yet again and tried to do the same damn thing after he was caught. Why lie like this? A developer’s reputation is their most important asset. What Steve did (or tried to do, till the phone conversation proved otherwise) was simply awful.
- murphyslab 3y ago
  > All this is to say that Steve Huffman might not be deliberately lying in this instance. Huffman has had 26+ days to correct the record. He has done nothing to that end. He made a "potentially career-ending" allegation, which hurt the reputation of the developer of Apollo, Christian Selig. June 8th: Selig released his side of the story, along with messages which were sent to him from a Reddit employee as well as from moderators engaged in a subsequent call with Reddit: https://web.archive.org/web/20230608172250/https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230608172250/https://old.reddi... June 9th (a full 24 hours later): Huffman had the facts, including the recording, which confirmed their mutual understanding. Huffman could have revised his stance there and then. Instead, Huffman doubled down, effectively reiterating the lie through his scare-quote and instead criticized Selig for acting publicly to defend his reputation against Reddit's internal and external slander: https://web.archive.org/web/20230616033947/https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk4oz4/?context=2 https://web.archive.org/web/20230616033947/https://old.reddi... Huffman is the CEO of the Reddit platform and nothing is stopping him from apologizing for making a potentially "potentially career-ending lie" against the developer of Apollo, Christian Selig. He hasn't made a peep on the platform since June 9th. If it wasn't deliberate, then he's had nearly a month to speak up for the truth. At some point, refusing to correct the record, a lie does become deliberate. --- Here's TechCrunch's reporting on the situation, if you prefer to hear it from a journalist: https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on...
  - sillysaurusx 3y ago
    This is an excellent comment — thank you for getting these sources together. I’ve favorited it in case I have to explain the situation to someone again. But! There’s suddenly a ray of hope. See the comment upthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36612285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36612285 Do you happen to know whether the call was with Steve himself, or some other Reddit employee? If it wasn’t Steve, then this whole thing was a giant miscommunication, which I’ve always suspected from the beginning. Boy it’s nice to feel hopeful about this for once. I really hope it wasn’t Steve.
newaccount74 3y ago
> maybe Huffman literally forgot that he misunderstood the Apollo dev Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the person on the call wasn't Huffman himself. Selig was talking to some Reddit employee, who presumably then told Huffman about the call. It's possible that the employee who talked to Selig didn't 100% accurately describe what was said in the call (because he didn't have a transcript to check what was said), and then Huffman misunderstood whatever the employee said further to come up with the blackmail accusation.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  Is this correct? I thought the call was with Steve himself. If this is true, it changes everything. Would anyone mind checking? My wife and I have been in the hospital for a month, and it’s 2am here. Their voices and mannerisms sounded similar and I always assumed it was Steve. If it wasn’t Steve, then I’ll immediately reverse my opinion. The evildoer was the employee. That’s a rather crucial detail.
  - Zaerru 3y ago
    It was a different employee than Steve on the call that apparently perpetuated the misunderstanding despite it being cleared up immediately and the employee apologizing; however, Steve continued to repeat the claim after Apollo Dev had refuted and proved the claim false, which the media (such as The Verge) had picked up. So though it was not originated from Steve, Steve perpetuated it when he should have known better.
  - newaccount74 3y ago
    I looked it up, Selig said it was an employee [1]: > As mentioned in the last post, thankfully I recorded the phone call and can show this to be false, to the extent that Reddit even apologized four times for misinterpreting it: > Reddit: "That's a complete misinterpretation on my end. I apologize. I apologize immediately." > (Note: as Steve declined to ever talk on a call, the call is with a Reddit representative) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_t...
silisili 3y ago
Did you listen to the call? A) it wasn't Huffman B) the dev absolutely was trying to get money out of them. You can't make a demand, then say 'uh, im kinda kidding' repeatedly. If someone held a gun to your head and asked for your wallet multiple times, each time saying they were kinda joking, what would you do? That said, Huffman et al absolutely shouldn't have aired dirty laundry.
- didntcheck 3y ago
  I did listen to it. The dev was calling the Reddit rep's bluff, effectively saying "if Apollo is really costing you so much money, why not just buy it for $cost/2?". He wasn't asking for personal hush money. He clarified this on the call and the rep understood and apologised for misunderstanding. Then Huffman went and publicly claimed the misunderstood version of events
  - silisili 3y ago
    I do agree that it -wasn't- a direct threat per se, maybe a more implicit one? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it. It sounded to me a lot like 'well, if I'm costing you money, give me money and I'll stop costing you money.' Quotes my interpretation, not direct quotes.
- evandale 3y ago
  The dev was obviously joking. What part of the recording suggests he wasn't? Exact timestamp please because I want to go back and listen to the context around it on my own rather than relying on your self selected soundbites/quotes.
  - silisili 3y ago
    It's a pretty short call, please do! But try to keep an open mind and not take mine or his word for it - it's all out there.
    - evandale 3y ago
heywhatupboys 3y ago
> It’s such a depressing situation. Steve Huffman got caught red handed making up lies about Apollo’s dev for no reason whatsoever. I wish I was exaggerating. this is false?
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
I mean he's got a track record of silly and petty behavior https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-steve-huffman-edit-comments https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...

mcpackieh 3y ago

Memory can be a funny thing, people repeat stories to themselves to keep memories fresh, but with each retelling the story can shift. "I thought he threatened me but then he clarified that he didn't" could turn into "He seemed to threaten me, but then chickened out when I confronted him" His memory of admitting he made an error could turn into a memory of still feeling threatened but trying to let the Apollo dev save face. All this is to say that Steve Huffman might not be deliberately lying in this instance. Maybe. It's hard to give him too much credit since he's already shown himself to be a snake who edits other people's comments and that's certainly not something that could be done by accident. Nonetheless, memory is a funny thing.

sillysaurusx 3y ago
Agreed, and I went down that road too. Unfortunately what sealed it for me was Steve’s response during his followup AMA when someone asked him about the Apollo dev. He said that the dev often said one thing and did another. Christian (the dev) called him out on it and said “I give you permission to name a single time this has happened.” No response. In other words, Steve doubled down yet again and tried to do the same damn thing after he was caught. Why lie like this? A developer’s reputation is their most important asset. What Steve did (or tried to do, till the phone conversation proved otherwise) was simply awful.
murphyslab 3y ago
> All this is to say that Steve Huffman might not be deliberately lying in this instance. Huffman has had 26+ days to correct the record. He has done nothing to that end. He made a "potentially career-ending" allegation, which hurt the reputation of the developer of Apollo, Christian Selig. June 8th: Selig released his side of the story, along with messages which were sent to him from a Reddit employee as well as from moderators engaged in a subsequent call with Reddit: https://web.archive.org/web/20230608172250/https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230608172250/https://old.reddi... June 9th (a full 24 hours later): Huffman had the facts, including the recording, which confirmed their mutual understanding. Huffman could have revised his stance there and then. Instead, Huffman doubled down, effectively reiterating the lie through his scare-quote and instead criticized Selig for acting publicly to defend his reputation against Reddit's internal and external slander: https://web.archive.org/web/20230616033947/https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/jnk4oz4/?context=2 https://web.archive.org/web/20230616033947/https://old.reddi... Huffman is the CEO of the Reddit platform and nothing is stopping him from apologizing for making a potentially "potentially career-ending lie" against the developer of Apollo, Christian Selig. He hasn't made a peep on the platform since June 9th. If it wasn't deliberate, then he's had nearly a month to speak up for the truth. At some point, refusing to correct the record, a lie does become deliberate. --- Here's TechCrunch's reporting on the situation, if you prefer to hear it from a journalist: https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on...
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  This is an excellent comment — thank you for getting these sources together. I’ve favorited it in case I have to explain the situation to someone again. But! There’s suddenly a ray of hope. See the comment upthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36612285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36612285 Do you happen to know whether the call was with Steve himself, or some other Reddit employee? If it wasn’t Steve, then this whole thing was a giant miscommunication, which I’ve always suspected from the beginning. Boy it’s nice to feel hopeful about this for once. I really hope it wasn’t Steve.

newaccount74 3y ago

> maybe Huffman literally forgot that he misunderstood the Apollo dev Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the person on the call wasn't Huffman himself. Selig was talking to some Reddit employee, who presumably then told Huffman about the call. It's possible that the employee who talked to Selig didn't 100% accurately describe what was said in the call (because he didn't have a transcript to check what was said), and then Huffman misunderstood whatever the employee said further to come up with the blackmail accusation.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sillysaurusx 3y ago
Is this correct? I thought the call was with Steve himself. If this is true, it changes everything. Would anyone mind checking? My wife and I have been in the hospital for a month, and it’s 2am here. Their voices and mannerisms sounded similar and I always assumed it was Steve. If it wasn’t Steve, then I’ll immediately reverse my opinion. The evildoer was the employee. That’s a rather crucial detail.
- Zaerru 3y ago
  It was a different employee than Steve on the call that apparently perpetuated the misunderstanding despite it being cleared up immediately and the employee apologizing; however, Steve continued to repeat the claim after Apollo Dev had refuted and proved the claim false, which the media (such as The Verge) had picked up. So though it was not originated from Steve, Steve perpetuated it when he should have known better.
- newaccount74 3y ago
  I looked it up, Selig said it was an employee [1]: > As mentioned in the last post, thankfully I recorded the phone call and can show this to be false, to the extent that Reddit even apologized four times for misinterpreting it: > Reddit: "That's a complete misinterpretation on my end. I apologize. I apologize immediately." > (Note: as Steve declined to ever talk on a call, the call is with a Reddit representative) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_to_debunk_reddits_claims_and_talk_about/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_t...

silisili 3y ago

Did you listen to the call? A) it wasn't Huffman B) the dev absolutely was trying to get money out of them. You can't make a demand, then say 'uh, im kinda kidding' repeatedly. If someone held a gun to your head and asked for your wallet multiple times, each time saying they were kinda joking, what would you do? That said, Huffman et al absolutely shouldn't have aired dirty laundry.

didntcheck 3y ago
I did listen to it. The dev was calling the Reddit rep's bluff, effectively saying "if Apollo is really costing you so much money, why not just buy it for $cost/2?". He wasn't asking for personal hush money. He clarified this on the call and the rep understood and apologised for misunderstanding. Then Huffman went and publicly claimed the misunderstood version of events
- silisili 3y ago
  I do agree that it -wasn't- a direct threat per se, maybe a more implicit one? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it. It sounded to me a lot like 'well, if I'm costing you money, give me money and I'll stop costing you money.' Quotes my interpretation, not direct quotes.
evandale 3y ago
The dev was obviously joking. What part of the recording suggests he wasn't? Exact timestamp please because I want to go back and listen to the context around it on my own rather than relying on your self selected soundbites/quotes.
- silisili 3y ago
  It's a pretty short call, please do! But try to keep an open mind and not take mine or his word for it - it's all out there.
  - evandale 3y ago

heywhatupboys 3y ago

> It’s such a depressing situation. Steve Huffman got caught red handed making up lies about Apollo’s dev for no reason whatsoever. I wish I was exaggerating. this is false?

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

I mean he's got a track record of silly and petty behavior https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-steve-huffman-edit-comments https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...