15 ms·

Huh? This doesn't make sense. Lots of modern maps even have north pointing somewhere other than up, though they use a marker to indicate which way is north.

Huh? This doesn't make sense. Lots of modern maps even have north pointing somewhere other than up, though they use a marker to indicate which way is north. It doesn't matter which way you point a piece of paper: the North Pole is always going to be the North Pole, and the South Pole is always going to be in Antarctica (until the continent drifts, though the pole will still be there). The names of these poles may have been originally chosen centuries ago because popular maps pointed that way, but now those names are fixed by definition.

throwaway290 3y ago
How about a better definition and a source for it then? :)
- midoridensha 3y ago
  You need a source to tell you where the north and south poles are located? Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    So you link to Wikipedia. OK. You see that it defines North pole in terms of Northern hemisphere. Now if you follow the links through you will see that Wikipedia defines North as "where the up on the map is". Qed.
    - midoridensha 3y ago
      If I'm standing on the Moon, looking at the Earth, I can see which side is North because of the arrangement of the continents. I don't need to have a paper map with me. The whole thing doesn't make sense. Finally, you're just plain wrong, and you're reading Wikipedia wrongly. According to the page for "North", >The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "left; below" as north is to left when facing the rising sun. Similarly, the other cardinal directions are also related to the sun's position. So the definition is derived from the Sun's position, not some stupid paper map. You're probably reading this part: >By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north. That just says that maps are normally oriented with North pointing up. It doesn't say that "north" is defined* that way.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        First you define North in terms of arrangements of continents (saying north is where northern continents are, cool) and then you use English etymology as definition? Lol. > You're probably reading this part Probably? I literally quoted it. You claim I misinterpreted that phrase but you don't give a better option. All definitions of north are by convention or relative to space (so if it flips then "northern arrangement" of continents you see from the moon will be southern)
        midoridensha 3y ago
        "North" IS by convention. I've been saying this all along. It has nothing to do with any map. The place we call "the north pole" is north because it's been defined that way for ages. Apparently the origins of the word have to do with Sun, but the effect is the same, because it points to the same place on this spinning ball. You quoted it, but you don't understand it.
        throwaway290 3y ago
        Ah but that's my point, turns out north is not a well-defined concept contrary to what I thought first. That quote is ambiguous and could be interpreted as "north is where the up on the map is". And actually there seems to be no better definition (that eg. would stand the flip of axis). What are we arguing about again?
        midoridensha 3y ago
        North IS a well-defined concept. From the most ancient times, people knew where north was: it's 90 degrees left of east, and east is where the Sun rises. Go back in time 5000 years and ask anyone where North is, and they'll point you to it, long before any modern maps of the world were ever made. Wikipedia having one poorly-written line about it doesn't change tens of thousands of years of human history and knowledge about where north is. Wikipedia isn't even an authoritative reference on anything.

throwaway290 3y ago

How about a better definition and a source for it then? :)

midoridensha 3y ago
You need a source to tell you where the north and south poles are located? Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole
- throwaway290 3y ago
  So you link to Wikipedia. OK. You see that it defines North pole in terms of Northern hemisphere. Now if you follow the links through you will see that Wikipedia defines North as "where the up on the map is". Qed.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    If I'm standing on the Moon, looking at the Earth, I can see which side is North because of the arrangement of the continents. I don't need to have a paper map with me. The whole thing doesn't make sense. Finally, you're just plain wrong, and you're reading Wikipedia wrongly. According to the page for "North", >The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "left; below" as north is to left when facing the rising sun. Similarly, the other cardinal directions are also related to the sun's position. So the definition is derived from the Sun's position, not some stupid paper map. You're probably reading this part: >By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north. That just says that maps are normally oriented with North pointing up. It doesn't say that "north" is defined* that way.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      First you define North in terms of arrangements of continents (saying north is where northern continents are, cool) and then you use English etymology as definition? Lol. > You're probably reading this part Probably? I literally quoted it. You claim I misinterpreted that phrase but you don't give a better option. All definitions of north are by convention or relative to space (so if it flips then "northern arrangement" of continents you see from the moon will be southern)
      - midoridensha 3y ago
        "North" IS by convention. I've been saying this all along. It has nothing to do with any map. The place we call "the north pole" is north because it's been defined that way for ages. Apparently the origins of the word have to do with Sun, but the effect is the same, because it points to the same place on this spinning ball. You quoted it, but you don't understand it.
        throwaway290 3y ago
        Ah but that's my point, turns out north is not a well-defined concept contrary to what I thought first. That quote is ambiguous and could be interpreted as "north is where the up on the map is". And actually there seems to be no better definition (that eg. would stand the flip of axis). What are we arguing about again?
        midoridensha 3y ago
        North IS a well-defined concept. From the most ancient times, people knew where north was: it's 90 degrees left of east, and east is where the Sun rises. Go back in time 5000 years and ask anyone where North is, and they'll point you to it, long before any modern maps of the world were ever made. Wikipedia having one poorly-written line about it doesn't change tens of thousands of years of human history and knowledge about where north is. Wikipedia isn't even an authoritative reference on anything.