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I still have to read a lot to make my mind about that, but if the mission objectives in the website are anything to go, this is kind of bullshit. The mission s

I still have to read a lot to make my mind about that, but if the mission objectives in the website are anything to go, this is kind of bullshit. The mission statement in the website: " As CBDCs podem melhorar a eficiência do mercado de pagamentos de varejo e promover a competição e a inclusão financeira para a população com pouco ou nenhum acesso a serviços bancários. " translating: CBDCs can imporive eficiency in retail payment market and inclusion of population of none of little access to bank services. But Brazil alread gave a big step a few years with the pix. This days anyone can open a free bank acccount in 10 minutes via their phones, and pay everything ditaglly. Your just scan a QR code, or send money using the person phone number as a key. To mee, this seens like a attempt to remove paper money from the market and increase tax collection.

alephnerd 3y ago
> To mee, this seens like a attempt to remove paper money from the market and increase tax collection. That's not a bad goal tbh, but why couldn't they continue to support the Digital Wallet/e-Banking industry instead then? Would CBDCs compete with NuBank? What differentiates it from Pix?
- major505 3y ago
  It is to me. It means mor control of the goverment over its people. Like I said in other comment. Its a precursor to the comeback of the CPMF. Also it had the potential to deanonimize all transactiosn you make. I dont wanna the goverment knowing everywhere I spend my money.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    True, but you could still do all that without a CBDC (eg. India w/ UPI and China w/ UnionPay). What value add does a CBDC provide if you want surveillance capabilities on a consumer's transactions and assets? Heck, Pix seems to have your CPF number so doesn't that mean any transaction over Pix (aka most digital transactions I assume) can be traced back to the individual?
    - major505 3y ago
      Thats the thing. Brazil alread does that. I dont know what this brings to the table. I will try to read thoug the documentation and see why the hell this exists
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Found the press release and interview - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-announces-pilot-digital-currency-seeking-leverage-financial-services-2023-03-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-announces-pilo... "Araujo said the "digital real" will be built as a means of payment executed on distributed ledger technology (DLT), to support the provision of retail financial services settled through tokenized deposits in institutions of the financial and payment systems in Brazil ... Araujo stressed that the concept of the Brazilian central bank digital currency (CBDC) was not intended to leverage digital payments, as this is already being done on a large scale with Pix, which was launched at the end of 2021 and has been widely adopted in Brazil." This appears to be a trial to streamline back office retail banking operations in Brazil. The example they seem to stress is democratizing federal bond sales within Brazil as well as Repo operations.
  - wslh 3y ago
    We need to see what happens in the future with this kind of initiatives. My two cents (beyond the specific technology to use) is that a digital cash should offer some level of anonymity as a "basic human right". The problem with governments , even assuming they are now 100% fine, is that they could be rogue and you never now how the data you give today is used by another government or state actor in the future. The Cashless Society article in Wikipedia gives good insights [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashless_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashless_society
    - major505 3y ago
      And Brazil have a terrible history of not respecting human rights and censoring people. IS a matter of time before this is used a leverage against its citizens.
major505 3y ago
a little context: Brazil in the past had a tax called CPMF (contribution over finnacial moviment). It was a tax you had to pay 0,38%.everytime you would move money and pay for somethin. It was collected in the source, and was a cascade tax because it was charged in every step of the logistic chain, including the sale for the final consumer. Because of the way the tax was created (contribution insted of a tax or imposto in portuguese), this means by law the money need to be destined to a specific target (public health). But because the goverment would use it to balance its accounts insted of invest in the public helth system it was extinct in 2007. But ever since then, the return of this tax is the wet dream of every govement that came in power, and in the last 2 theres been serious talks to tax digital transactions in a type of new CPMF. And thats what wores me when the goverment start talking about abolishing paper money.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Look to neighboring Argentina to see the results: People will open accounts in foreign countries and have their money in dollars or euros. The national currency will be worth nothing, as everybody tries to escape it.
- ElectricalUnion 3y ago
  > It was a tax you had to pay 0,38%.everytime you would move money and pay for somethin. Important untaxed exceptions were pension income, "wage earner" income and stock trading (this last one always baffled me). > this means by law the money need to be destined to a specific target (public health). But because the goverment would use it to balance its accounts insted of invest in the public helth system it was extinct in 2007. CMPF funding could only be used by healthcare, pensions and social welfare. Universal healthcare systems are expensive. Brazil (and any other country, really) universal healthcare system needed and had a reasonably big budget that was paid basically by CPMF alone, so all the other combined taxes and contributions paid for everything else. The government, by law, could not "move" the funds to anything else. The reason it was extinct is because it was a direct tax over wealth translation of "the establishment"/"the banked class" - around that time more that 60% of Brazil was unbanked and therefore not directly affected. Now that Brazil no longer has a contribution specifically destined to healthcare and pensions, both it's universal healthcare system and pension system are in a much worse state.
hanniabu 3y ago
> To mee, this seens like a attempt to remove paper money from the market and increase tax collection. Not just taxes, complete control. You can have your funds locked if you're a protester, critical of certain politics, maybe run campaigns the government doesn't agree with, or dissent in any way. The government can control what you are and aren't allowed to spend money on. They can control times/days/dates you are/aren't allowed to spend. Sure, maybe this isn't their goal right now, but history has proven that over time the government will abuse any inch you give them to exert more control over you.

alephnerd 3y ago

> To mee, this seens like a attempt to remove paper money from the market and increase tax collection. That's not a bad goal tbh, but why couldn't they continue to support the Digital Wallet/e-Banking industry instead then? Would CBDCs compete with NuBank? What differentiates it from Pix?

major505 3y ago
It is to me. It means mor control of the goverment over its people. Like I said in other comment. Its a precursor to the comeback of the CPMF. Also it had the potential to deanonimize all transactiosn you make. I dont wanna the goverment knowing everywhere I spend my money.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  True, but you could still do all that without a CBDC (eg. India w/ UPI and China w/ UnionPay). What value add does a CBDC provide if you want surveillance capabilities on a consumer's transactions and assets? Heck, Pix seems to have your CPF number so doesn't that mean any transaction over Pix (aka most digital transactions I assume) can be traced back to the individual?
  - major505 3y ago
    Thats the thing. Brazil alread does that. I dont know what this brings to the table. I will try to read thoug the documentation and see why the hell this exists
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Found the press release and interview - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-announces-pilot-digital-currency-seeking-leverage-financial-services-2023-03-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-announces-pilo... "Araujo said the "digital real" will be built as a means of payment executed on distributed ledger technology (DLT), to support the provision of retail financial services settled through tokenized deposits in institutions of the financial and payment systems in Brazil ... Araujo stressed that the concept of the Brazilian central bank digital currency (CBDC) was not intended to leverage digital payments, as this is already being done on a large scale with Pix, which was launched at the end of 2021 and has been widely adopted in Brazil." This appears to be a trial to streamline back office retail banking operations in Brazil. The example they seem to stress is democratizing federal bond sales within Brazil as well as Repo operations.
- wslh 3y ago
  We need to see what happens in the future with this kind of initiatives. My two cents (beyond the specific technology to use) is that a digital cash should offer some level of anonymity as a "basic human right". The problem with governments , even assuming they are now 100% fine, is that they could be rogue and you never now how the data you give today is used by another government or state actor in the future. The Cashless Society article in Wikipedia gives good insights [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashless_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashless_society
  - major505 3y ago
    And Brazil have a terrible history of not respecting human rights and censoring people. IS a matter of time before this is used a leverage against its citizens.

major505 3y ago

a little context: Brazil in the past had a tax called CPMF (contribution over finnacial moviment). It was a tax you had to pay 0,38%.everytime you would move money and pay for somethin. It was collected in the source, and was a cascade tax because it was charged in every step of the logistic chain, including the sale for the final consumer. Because of the way the tax was created (contribution insted of a tax or imposto in portuguese), this means by law the money need to be destined to a specific target (public health). But because the goverment would use it to balance its accounts insted of invest in the public helth system it was extinct in 2007. But ever since then, the return of this tax is the wet dream of every govement that came in power, and in the last 2 theres been serious talks to tax digital transactions in a type of new CPMF. And thats what wores me when the goverment start talking about abolishing paper money.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
carlosjobim 3y ago
Look to neighboring Argentina to see the results: People will open accounts in foreign countries and have their money in dollars or euros. The national currency will be worth nothing, as everybody tries to escape it.
ElectricalUnion 3y ago
> It was a tax you had to pay 0,38%.everytime you would move money and pay for somethin. Important untaxed exceptions were pension income, "wage earner" income and stock trading (this last one always baffled me). > this means by law the money need to be destined to a specific target (public health). But because the goverment would use it to balance its accounts insted of invest in the public helth system it was extinct in 2007. CMPF funding could only be used by healthcare, pensions and social welfare. Universal healthcare systems are expensive. Brazil (and any other country, really) universal healthcare system needed and had a reasonably big budget that was paid basically by CPMF alone, so all the other combined taxes and contributions paid for everything else. The government, by law, could not "move" the funds to anything else. The reason it was extinct is because it was a direct tax over wealth translation of "the establishment"/"the banked class" - around that time more that 60% of Brazil was unbanked and therefore not directly affected. Now that Brazil no longer has a contribution specifically destined to healthcare and pensions, both it's universal healthcare system and pension system are in a much worse state.

hanniabu 3y ago

> To mee, this seens like a attempt to remove paper money from the market and increase tax collection. Not just taxes, complete control. You can have your funds locked if you're a protester, critical of certain politics, maybe run campaigns the government doesn't agree with, or dissent in any way. The government can control what you are and aren't allowed to spend money on. They can control times/days/dates you are/aren't allowed to spend. Sure, maybe this isn't their goal right now, but history has proven that over time the government will abuse any inch you give them to exert more control over you.