4 ms·

Although natural gas is "clean" compared to, say, coal, the advantage of a heat pump is that it uses less total energy than natural gas. That means it would be

by elil17 3y ago

Although natural gas is "clean" compared to, say, coal, the advantage of a heat pump is that it uses less total energy than natural gas. That means it would be more efficient to run a heat pump off a natural gas power plant than to burn natural gas to heat your home directly.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Where I live, you can bank solar credits. If you cash them out you get the "wholesale" energy price for them (much lower), but if you spend them on electricity then you've avoided paying full price for that electricity. So if your system produces more than you consume, you've got this free energy budget to spend--a budget that applies to heat pumps and not to gas furnaces.
Alupis 3y ago
People's AC summertime electric bills regularly get into triple-digits - it's not uncommon to hear someone with a moderately sized home having a $200-400 electric bill in the summertime. However, even in the midst of winter, gas heating bills rarely climb above $100 monthly. What am I missing here? It seems a heatpump, while more efficient, will cost significantly more to operate. Natural Gas is cheap... and clean enough.
- kibwen 3y ago
  It's actually difficult to say what the cost would be if everyone switched over. The reason is that natural gas is subsidized, both on the production side (at least in the US, which wants energy security) and on the consumption side (because it's politically unpopular to let people freeze to death). Of course, electricity prices are also affected by subsidies. Figuring out the true operating prices would require some research. However, it remains true that, in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, it is usually preferable to heat a home with a heat pump than by burning gas directly (there exists a temperature below which any given unit will become less efficient than burning gas, but unless you live in a place where this temperature is common then heat pumps will still come out on top (and the fact that residential gas lines are notoriously leaky and basically just venting nonstop into the atmosphere makes the calculation even more favorable)).
  - Alupis 3y ago
    It seems to me, there is no future where a heatpump can be the only source of in-home heating then. 1) Natural Gas is vastly cheaper in most/all of the US. 2) Homes still require an alternative heating source when temperatures drop to low levels (coincidentally when people need heating the most). So, even if a heatpump is technically more efficient in terms of emissions, the technology does not solve all of the problems it's attempting to replace. Additionally, Natural Gas is vastly more clean in terms of emissions than some other alternatives still used around the country. There's no way the average home is going to stomach 2-4x more heating expenses on average without some real tangible benefit (hand-wavy emissions numbers don't factor into the average homeowner's decision making). I must be missing something here...
    - Maxion 3y ago
      > It seems to me, there is no future where a heatpump can be the only source of in-home heating then. > > 1) Natural Gas is vastly cheaper in most/all of the US. > > 2) Homes still require an alternative heating source when temperatures drop to low levels (coincidentally when people need heating the most). > ... > I must be missing something here... Yes you are, your natural gas subsidized, i.e. government handout, i.e. you're not paying the real market cost. Second, heat pumps do not have issues with cold temps, unless you're at like -40c. They're used all over the nordic countries - including above the arctic circle. Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        > Yes you are, your natural gas subsidized, i.e. government handout, i.e. you're not paying the real market cost. > Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high. Adding a heatpump solves this issue, or makes it worse?
        tcfhgj 3y ago
        Heat pumps power consumption can be modulated by energy providers and improve grid power stability. In Germany you get way cheaper electricity prices if you allow this.
- bluSCALE4 3y ago
  I'm with you here. I replaced a gas water heater with a hybrid water pump and I'm paying more for my troubles. The thing is, I do plan on installing PV panels in a few years--I can't generate my own gas so once I make that happen, I'll be a happy camper.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    That was my plan; install solar panels and then slowly switch things from gas to electric as they need replacement. Unfortunately solar installer I was in contract with canceled on me for seemingly-bogus reasons, and I didn't have time to find a new one before California's new, unfavorable net metering rules went into effect.
  - elil17 3y ago
    Most hybrid water pump heaters do not fully use their heat pump by default - their should be an "Eco" or "heat pump only" setting somewhere on your device which will make it much more efficient.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I'm fairly certain we're near - or even past - the point where burning natural gas to run a generator to power a heat pump will use less gas than burning the gas directly for heat.
- elil17 3y ago
  Perhaps you live in a warm climate? A heatpump (or heatpump + gas for a very cold climate) should cost always cost less than gas

by elil17 3y ago

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

Where I live, you can bank solar credits. If you cash them out you get the "wholesale" energy price for them (much lower), but if you spend them on electricity then you've avoided paying full price for that electricity. So if your system produces more than you consume, you've got this free energy budget to spend--a budget that applies to heat pumps and not to gas furnaces.

Alupis 3y ago

People's AC summertime electric bills regularly get into triple-digits - it's not uncommon to hear someone with a moderately sized home having a $200-400 electric bill in the summertime. However, even in the midst of winter, gas heating bills rarely climb above $100 monthly. What am I missing here? It seems a heatpump, while more efficient, will cost significantly more to operate. Natural Gas is cheap... and clean enough.

kibwen 3y ago
It's actually difficult to say what the cost would be if everyone switched over. The reason is that natural gas is subsidized, both on the production side (at least in the US, which wants energy security) and on the consumption side (because it's politically unpopular to let people freeze to death). Of course, electricity prices are also affected by subsidies. Figuring out the true operating prices would require some research. However, it remains true that, in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, it is usually preferable to heat a home with a heat pump than by burning gas directly (there exists a temperature below which any given unit will become less efficient than burning gas, but unless you live in a place where this temperature is common then heat pumps will still come out on top (and the fact that residential gas lines are notoriously leaky and basically just venting nonstop into the atmosphere makes the calculation even more favorable)).
- Alupis 3y ago
  It seems to me, there is no future where a heatpump can be the only source of in-home heating then. 1) Natural Gas is vastly cheaper in most/all of the US. 2) Homes still require an alternative heating source when temperatures drop to low levels (coincidentally when people need heating the most). So, even if a heatpump is technically more efficient in terms of emissions, the technology does not solve all of the problems it's attempting to replace. Additionally, Natural Gas is vastly more clean in terms of emissions than some other alternatives still used around the country. There's no way the average home is going to stomach 2-4x more heating expenses on average without some real tangible benefit (hand-wavy emissions numbers don't factor into the average homeowner's decision making). I must be missing something here...
  - Maxion 3y ago
    > It seems to me, there is no future where a heatpump can be the only source of in-home heating then. > > 1) Natural Gas is vastly cheaper in most/all of the US. > > 2) Homes still require an alternative heating source when temperatures drop to low levels (coincidentally when people need heating the most). > ... > I must be missing something here... Yes you are, your natural gas subsidized, i.e. government handout, i.e. you're not paying the real market cost. Second, heat pumps do not have issues with cold temps, unless you're at like -40c. They're used all over the nordic countries - including above the arctic circle. Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > Yes you are, your natural gas subsidized, i.e. government handout, i.e. you're not paying the real market cost. > Your energy grid is shit, which is why your electricity price is so high. Adding a heatpump solves this issue, or makes it worse?
      - tcfhgj 3y ago
        Heat pumps power consumption can be modulated by energy providers and improve grid power stability. In Germany you get way cheaper electricity prices if you allow this.
bluSCALE4 3y ago
I'm with you here. I replaced a gas water heater with a hybrid water pump and I'm paying more for my troubles. The thing is, I do plan on installing PV panels in a few years--I can't generate my own gas so once I make that happen, I'll be a happy camper.
- kelnos 3y ago
  That was my plan; install solar panels and then slowly switch things from gas to electric as they need replacement. Unfortunately solar installer I was in contract with canceled on me for seemingly-bogus reasons, and I didn't have time to find a new one before California's new, unfavorable net metering rules went into effect.
- elil17 3y ago
  Most hybrid water pump heaters do not fully use their heat pump by default - their should be an "Eco" or "heat pump only" setting somewhere on your device which will make it much more efficient.
nerdbert 3y ago
I'm fairly certain we're near - or even past - the point where burning natural gas to run a generator to power a heat pump will use less gas than burning the gas directly for heat.
elil17 3y ago
Perhaps you live in a warm climate? A heatpump (or heatpump + gas for a very cold climate) should cost always cost less than gas