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Were they shoving their arm through the window? Did they need to do so? Is their safety more important than that of a civilian? These are leading questions, be

Were they shoving their arm through the window? Did they need to do so? Is their safety more important than that of a civilian? These are leading questions, because the answer is obvious: if the choice is a dead cop or a dead civilian, a dead cop is the only moral choice that can be made. Optimizing for the safety of the police is how you turn police into fearful, scared "warriors" who view the citizenry as their enemy, like we have in the United States. Risk is the police's business, taken intentionally and with foreknowledge on behalf of the citizenry. Or else they're bullies with badges.

hinata08 3y ago
you can't really compare the police in the USA and the police in France. US cops are just a rogue and racist organisation, who apply their own law (mostly based on racial profiling). I think that comparing it to the police in the Philippines would be more appropriate. The victim in this case got hated by the right wing was because he was a stereotypical drug dealer who drove off, and nothing else, and they wanted the police to be able to work.
- eropple 3y ago
  Of course. Your point is a good one. But police in France aren't being dragged by cars when they stick an arm through the window, so I was accepting the implicit move in framing.
josephcsible 3y ago
Your use of the word "civilian" is super misleading because of its connotation of being an innocent bystander. Replace it with "fugitive" and see if your statement is still so obvious.
- eropple 3y ago
  Sure, no problem! Let's sound it out, just for you. If the choice is a dead cop or a dead fugitive, a dead cop is the only moral choice that can be made. That was easy. And it's true and it's right, too. The police are not judges and they are not executioners. If it takes a dead cop to bring in a non-violent fugitive, who in functional countries is to be presumed innocent until found otherwise by a court of law, that is a good price to pay for society. And I do note non-violent; somebody who's engaged in violence against other people--not property--has implicitly raised the stakes and I don't have a problem with the police then responding with force. (But they are not mind-readers, and so hypothetical future endangerment of civilians without cause is not within bounds.) If police don't like defaulting to rules of engagement where civilians' lives matter more than their own, they can find another job where they can't employ force against other people.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    When people are close enough to your car that speeding off is likely to run them over or drag them along, doing so anyway is violent. > rules of engagement where civilians' lives matter more than their own You're back to the word "civilians" again. And I don't accept that law enforcement's lives are worth less than lawbreakers' lives.
    - eropple 3y ago
      "Likely to run them over"? Please. Is it possible? Sure, I guess. Did it happen? No. Do you execute somebody for it could have happened? Well, I mean, I think officers of the peace shouldn't do so regardless of country. > You're back to the word "civilians" again. And I don't accept that law enforcement's lives are worth less than lawbreakers' lives. Because they are civilians! That's the definition! Words mean things! You don't have to accept that cops are less important than civilians. I think your position is wrong and gross, but I concede that there's a discussion to be had about rules of engagement. We could have that, if you were packing for it. But you want call me out for dirty pool about the word civilian? How about lawbreaker? In a liberal society, it is the job of a court to decide who's a lawbreaker. Cops don't make law and cops don't prescribe punishment. If we're talking about dirty pool, loading that implication onto an extrajudicial execution should make it really hard for you to look in the mirror. I hope you've got the same energy for taking one in the ten-ring when you go five miles an hour over the speed limit in an area with a few curb cuts. After all, you could have hit someone.
      - forgetfulness 3y ago
        > You don't have to accept that cops are less important than civilians. I think your position is wrong and gross, but I concede that there's a discussion to be had about rules of engagement. We could have that, if you were packing for it. There's bad faith arguing and then there's this, you're just rushing to claim a moral high ground you don't have to move the post towards someone having to dismantle the claim that cops are less important than civilians. In my country, Chile, there was a brief flash of time when this attitude was taken, that even if a suspect threatens a cop's life to get away, they should be given that right. People got sick of dead cops quite quickly, and the position was just thrown into the dustbin of history, poof, there, wrong side of history, discredited, shunned, almost forgotten. You don't have rule of law when "civilians" make their own in the street and the State giving up the monopoly of violence.

hinata08 3y ago

you can't really compare the police in the USA and the police in France. US cops are just a rogue and racist organisation, who apply their own law (mostly based on racial profiling). I think that comparing it to the police in the Philippines would be more appropriate. The victim in this case got hated by the right wing was because he was a stereotypical drug dealer who drove off, and nothing else, and they wanted the police to be able to work.

eropple 3y ago
Of course. Your point is a good one. But police in France aren't being dragged by cars when they stick an arm through the window, so I was accepting the implicit move in framing.

josephcsible 3y ago

Your use of the word "civilian" is super misleading because of its connotation of being an innocent bystander. Replace it with "fugitive" and see if your statement is still so obvious.

eropple 3y ago
Sure, no problem! Let's sound it out, just for you. If the choice is a dead cop or a dead fugitive, a dead cop is the only moral choice that can be made. That was easy. And it's true and it's right, too. The police are not judges and they are not executioners. If it takes a dead cop to bring in a non-violent fugitive, who in functional countries is to be presumed innocent until found otherwise by a court of law, that is a good price to pay for society. And I do note non-violent; somebody who's engaged in violence against other people--not property--has implicitly raised the stakes and I don't have a problem with the police then responding with force. (But they are not mind-readers, and so hypothetical future endangerment of civilians without cause is not within bounds.) If police don't like defaulting to rules of engagement where civilians' lives matter more than their own, they can find another job where they can't employ force against other people.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  When people are close enough to your car that speeding off is likely to run them over or drag them along, doing so anyway is violent. > rules of engagement where civilians' lives matter more than their own You're back to the word "civilians" again. And I don't accept that law enforcement's lives are worth less than lawbreakers' lives.
  - eropple 3y ago
    "Likely to run them over"? Please. Is it possible? Sure, I guess. Did it happen? No. Do you execute somebody for it could have happened? Well, I mean, I think officers of the peace shouldn't do so regardless of country. > You're back to the word "civilians" again. And I don't accept that law enforcement's lives are worth less than lawbreakers' lives. Because they are civilians! That's the definition! Words mean things! You don't have to accept that cops are less important than civilians. I think your position is wrong and gross, but I concede that there's a discussion to be had about rules of engagement. We could have that, if you were packing for it. But you want call me out for dirty pool about the word civilian? How about lawbreaker? In a liberal society, it is the job of a court to decide who's a lawbreaker. Cops don't make law and cops don't prescribe punishment. If we're talking about dirty pool, loading that implication onto an extrajudicial execution should make it really hard for you to look in the mirror. I hope you've got the same energy for taking one in the ten-ring when you go five miles an hour over the speed limit in an area with a few curb cuts. After all, you could have hit someone.
    - forgetfulness 3y ago
      > You don't have to accept that cops are less important than civilians. I think your position is wrong and gross, but I concede that there's a discussion to be had about rules of engagement. We could have that, if you were packing for it. There's bad faith arguing and then there's this, you're just rushing to claim a moral high ground you don't have to move the post towards someone having to dismantle the claim that cops are less important than civilians. In my country, Chile, there was a brief flash of time when this attitude was taken, that even if a suspect threatens a cop's life to get away, they should be given that right. People got sick of dead cops quite quickly, and the position was just thrown into the dustbin of history, poof, there, wrong side of history, discredited, shunned, almost forgotten. You don't have rule of law when "civilians" make their own in the street and the State giving up the monopoly of violence.