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> That’s exactly what every side in every war said, ever. It's true with Russia though, every time there was any sort of anything like negotiating they just tr

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> That’s exactly what every side in every war said, ever. It's true with Russia though, every time there was any sort of anything like negotiating they just try and raise the stakes. Like when they intentionally bomb Kyiv when international visitors are visiting just to try and make a point. > Sure, they would have if Naftali Bennett was allowed to conclude a peace agreeemnt JUST LIKE NIKOLAS SARKOZY DID in the Russo-Georgia war. The question to you is WHY DID THE US BLOCK IT? Answer that directly, don’t dodge! This was answered for you by someone else, so I am just going to link to it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36600919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36600919 > Sure, Russia could just allow US to go 3000 miles away, flip all its neighbors against it, put nuclear missiles aimed at Russia on its borders This was never going to happen, no one wants nukes in Ukraine but it ironically would be poetic justice as Ukraine gave up their nukes for a promise from Russia, the US and the UK that they wouldn't do what Russia is doing right now. Why don't you care about the peace agreement Ukraine has had with Russia for decades?. You seem to want very much some sort of Minsk scenario but completely ignore the fact the Ukraine already has a peace agreement with Russia. They have just being ignoring, because they don't care to follow international agreements when it doesn't suit them. It's funny though your opinion on this exact topic and many others just happens to be the exact same as all the other pro Russian people. Yet you claim to be 'even handed'. > The worst part is, the fantasy scenario is exactly the one Kennedy warned about will bring about the destruction of humanity. And our leaders have it as an explicit policy! It’s a game of chicken where they are actively chasing down the cornered animal with larger and larger escalations until it reacts. And we are all held hostage. Why ? No one is escalating aside from Russia. Defending yourself isn't escalating.

EGreg 3y ago
Why don’t you directly answer what I asked? Unless you’re saying “well, here is the official line, I think whatever they said”. My point of view is very simple … implementing Minsk II could have prevented all of this. Presidents met repeatedly for YEARS but, at least on the Ukrainian side, it was all just “to buy time” for a larger escalation, never to implement the Minsk II. But google it and read the provisions. ALL OF THEM ARE POSITIVE FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED. And far better than this war. If Russia really wanted to take over Georgia, why didn’t they? If Russia wanted to kill Ukrainians why did they not carpet bomb a single city like they did Aleppo and Grozny? Why are so many people saying this is “just Putin”? Because they still hope to avoid blaming ALL RUSSIANS. But the fact is if you killed Putin it would be like assassinating JFK — the next guy LBJ only escalated the “special military operations” in Viet Nam, Laos, etc. We HAVE TO RESPECT OTHER COUNTRIES’ CONCERNS, instead of caricaturing them as alternately dumb, deranged, simply under a psychopathic leader, etc. In 2008, Burns, then the American ambassador to Moscow, wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” That about says it all. It is NOT just ”one dictator”. It is our foreign policy. Just as it was in every. other. country. And it’s not just Jeffrey Sachs or Scott Ritter or something. It’s literally EVERY expert who isn’t a war hawk and whose job it was to know this predicted the outcome. And wrote open letters and so on: https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999 https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-w...
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > My point of view is very simple … implementing Minsk II could have prevented all of this. Ah yes more international agreements that Russia will just ignore, like they ignored Minsk 1. Just like they ignored the Budapest Memorandum But trust us this time, we will totally follow the agreement!. Russia doesn't abide by agreements they seem them as weakness they only abide when they see strength. A agreement will never stop this war it will just kick it down the road at best, and letter Russia rearm at the worst. > If Russia wanted to kill Ukrainians why did they not carpet bomb a single city like they did Aleppo and Grozny? Have you not seen Bakhmut?. This what Russia does, like they did and do in Syria, like they did Checneya, like they do in Ukraine. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-images-show-scale-of-destruction-in-bakhmut-ukraine https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-... > We HAVE TO RESPECT OTHER COUNTRIES’ CONCERNS, instead of caricaturing them as alternately dumb, deranged, simply under a psychopathic leader, etc. No amounts of caps lock will make this reality. Russia doesn't have 'concerns' its only 'concern' is that it will be unable to subjugate post soviet states in the future due to either their strength or their inclusion in alliances like NATO. > And it’s not just Jeffrey Sachs or Scott Ritter or something. Why am I not surprised you instantly invoke two Russian propagandist.
  - EGreg 3y ago
    > Why am I not surprised you instantly invoke two Russian propagandist. Instantly as opposed to what? The point was to list them as a countrexample. Here is a longer list of “Russian assets”: Noam Chomsky The Pope Tulsi Gabbard (Hillary said so!) Progressives in Congress Conservatives in Congress The population of India The population of China Nigel Farage All experts who signed warnings for decades: https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999 https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-war-follows-decades-... Just like now, experts in AI write strongly worded open letters warning of 10% or more chance of human extinction, but we disregard them, just like no one builds nuclear fallout shelters anymore. It’s a generation that pollutes the planet with plastic etc, destroys species and ecosystems, insect populations are plummeting, and even global warming is now a much less pressing concern — and no one can stop it from rushing to the precipice. But I’m glad you have such great justifications for continuing the forever wars. Literally no one with any pedigree regardless of what they have done, can be tolerated for anything else than full support for the latest endless war. Same with if you questioned any aspect of the rushed vaccines. Or any number of other coordinated movements.

by _kbh_ 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

Why don’t you directly answer what I asked? Unless you’re saying “well, here is the official line, I think whatever they said”. My point of view is very simple … implementing Minsk II could have prevented all of this. Presidents met repeatedly for YEARS but, at least on the Ukrainian side, it was all just “to buy time” for a larger escalation, never to implement the Minsk II. But google it and read the provisions. ALL OF THEM ARE POSITIVE FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED. And far better than this war. If Russia really wanted to take over Georgia, why didn’t they? If Russia wanted to kill Ukrainians why did they not carpet bomb a single city like they did Aleppo and Grozny? Why are so many people saying this is “just Putin”? Because they still hope to avoid blaming ALL RUSSIANS. But the fact is if you killed Putin it would be like assassinating JFK — the next guy LBJ only escalated the “special military operations” in Viet Nam, Laos, etc. We HAVE TO RESPECT OTHER COUNTRIES’ CONCERNS, instead of caricaturing them as alternately dumb, deranged, simply under a psychopathic leader, etc. In 2008, Burns, then the American ambassador to Moscow, wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” That about says it all. It is NOT just ”one dictator”. It is our foreign policy. Just as it was in every. other. country. And it’s not just Jeffrey Sachs or Scott Ritter or something. It’s literally EVERY expert who isn’t a war hawk and whose job it was to know this predicted the outcome. And wrote open letters and so on: https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999 https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-w...

_kbh_ 3y ago
> My point of view is very simple … implementing Minsk II could have prevented all of this. Ah yes more international agreements that Russia will just ignore, like they ignored Minsk 1. Just like they ignored the Budapest Memorandum But trust us this time, we will totally follow the agreement!. Russia doesn't abide by agreements they seem them as weakness they only abide when they see strength. A agreement will never stop this war it will just kick it down the road at best, and letter Russia rearm at the worst. > If Russia wanted to kill Ukrainians why did they not carpet bomb a single city like they did Aleppo and Grozny? Have you not seen Bakhmut?. This what Russia does, like they did and do in Syria, like they did Checneya, like they do in Ukraine. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-images-show-scale-of-destruction-in-bakhmut-ukraine https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-... > We HAVE TO RESPECT OTHER COUNTRIES’ CONCERNS, instead of caricaturing them as alternately dumb, deranged, simply under a psychopathic leader, etc. No amounts of caps lock will make this reality. Russia doesn't have 'concerns' its only 'concern' is that it will be unable to subjugate post soviet states in the future due to either their strength or their inclusion in alliances like NATO. > And it’s not just Jeffrey Sachs or Scott Ritter or something. Why am I not surprised you instantly invoke two Russian propagandist.
- EGreg 3y ago
  > Why am I not surprised you instantly invoke two Russian propagandist. Instantly as opposed to what? The point was to list them as a countrexample. Here is a longer list of “Russian assets”: Noam Chomsky The Pope Tulsi Gabbard (Hillary said so!) Progressives in Congress Conservatives in Congress The population of India The population of China Nigel Farage All experts who signed warnings for decades: https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999 https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-war-follows-decades-... Just like now, experts in AI write strongly worded open letters warning of 10% or more chance of human extinction, but we disregard them, just like no one builds nuclear fallout shelters anymore. It’s a generation that pollutes the planet with plastic etc, destroys species and ecosystems, insect populations are plummeting, and even global warming is now a much less pressing concern — and no one can stop it from rushing to the precipice. But I’m glad you have such great justifications for continuing the forever wars. Literally no one with any pedigree regardless of what they have done, can be tolerated for anything else than full support for the latest endless war. Same with if you questioned any aspect of the rushed vaccines. Or any number of other coordinated movements.