5 ms·

I highly agree. The main web frameworks I use are Svelte and Sveltekit. No comparison charts to other projects, easy to use, simple, created by a seemingly norm

I highly agree. The main web frameworks I use are Svelte and Sveltekit. No comparison charts to other projects, easy to use, simple, created by a seemingly normal guy with sane opinions out of need for something like it for himself. It's not the end all be all, but works well for me. The JS world is pretty weird though. It's not only JS frameworks popping up in rapid succession but also browser features and proposals developing quickly. And what's really weird is how some new features rely on JavaScript, such as the newer <dialog> HTML element.

bongobingo1 3y ago
> No comparison charts to other projects At least, none they publish first. https://youtu.be/AdNJ3fydeao?t=1083 https://youtu.be/AdNJ3fydeao?t=1083
revskill 3y ago
You seems misunderstand the role of web framework. People want better abstraction than HTML, and JS is the only simple way. Why i should use HTML input while i have better abstraction for it ? TLDR is, HTML is the issue, not JS frameworks.
- dmix 3y ago
  (Old man yells at cloud)
- solardev 3y ago
  Well said.
dmix 3y ago
> And what's really weird is how some new features rely on JavaScript, such as the newer <dialog> HTML element. Compared to the older alert/confirm dialogue which was driven by a C++ browser window + JS boolean it kind of makes sense for <dialog> to use JS for such a thing and keep it within the HTML/stylable context. Like confirms the only place it will be used is within JS. So there's no separating the two really. Unless you're just looking for a glorified HTML5 tag that you have to do yourself.
foobarbecue 3y ago
Yes, it's awful that HTML is now dependent on js... how did we let that happen?? I'm thinking mostly of HTML5 web components, which, unless I missed something, are completely useless without js. All I wanted was a way for HTML to import other HTML. This seems to be the central issue that we've been hacking around for decades with SSI, template languages, and js. It's so basic -- everybody wants a header and a footer and maybe a menu on each page. Should be an HTML feature.
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  iframes?
  - otabdeveloper4 3y ago
    Yes, except without the frame. (Restrict cross-origin requests if you worry about security.)
  - bilekas 3y ago
    Are iframes still fully supported across all browsers though?
- gochi 3y ago
  You're basically suggesting implementing JS within HTML, which htmx exists on a technicality, but not sure that's something we should be pushing at all. We're just spreading JS problems to HTML which is a perfectly fine language.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Also, JSX is pretty much literally this. But yes, HTML was clearly designed for producing output markup; but in reality the people who want to generate markup want to handle nested data, if/else, and loops, because that is better than copy pasting a bunch of markup everywhere and occasionally fat-fingering something.
  - johnmw 3y ago
    I'm not sure I follow? I think the GP was just talking about the ability to import other HTML fragments without JS? Something like: <fragment href="site-menu.html"/> Which would load my shared site wide menu html into the parent div. I'm not sure why JS would be needed here? (i.e in the same way html <select> elements are interactive without needing "JS"). Going a little more out there, what about cross domain imports for easy web component consumption? <fragment href="https://weather-widget.org?location=london" /> I can't see how this would be less secure than current cross domain JS imports? It used to be sorta possible with HTML Imports but that spec got dropped [1]. [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/html-imports/ https://www.w3.org/TR/html-imports/
mmcnl 3y ago
That's why I love Vue as well. It's developer & product-focused. No fancy marketing. Great docs. Approachable maintainers.
- aerio 3y ago
  Fantastic docs, and primo documentation is not to be underestimated. Picking it up was a cinch. Personally I love single file components. In specified having html, js and my scss in the same file, but split into <template>, <script setup>, and <style>. Nuxt 3 is fantastic DX.

bongobingo1 3y ago

> No comparison charts to other projects At least, none they publish first. https://youtu.be/AdNJ3fydeao?t=1083 https://youtu.be/AdNJ3fydeao?t=1083

revskill 3y ago

You seems misunderstand the role of web framework. People want better abstraction than HTML, and JS is the only simple way. Why i should use HTML input while i have better abstraction for it ? TLDR is, HTML is the issue, not JS frameworks.

dmix 3y ago
(Old man yells at cloud)
solardev 3y ago
Well said.

dmix 3y ago

> And what's really weird is how some new features rely on JavaScript, such as the newer <dialog> HTML element. Compared to the older alert/confirm dialogue which was driven by a C++ browser window + JS boolean it kind of makes sense for <dialog> to use JS for such a thing and keep it within the HTML/stylable context. Like confirms the only place it will be used is within JS. So there's no separating the two really. Unless you're just looking for a glorified HTML5 tag that you have to do yourself.

foobarbecue 3y ago

Yes, it's awful that HTML is now dependent on js... how did we let that happen?? I'm thinking mostly of HTML5 web components, which, unless I missed something, are completely useless without js. All I wanted was a way for HTML to import other HTML. This seems to be the central issue that we've been hacking around for decades with SSI, template languages, and js. It's so basic -- everybody wants a header and a footer and maybe a menu on each page. Should be an HTML feature.

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
iframes?
- otabdeveloper4 3y ago
  Yes, except without the frame. (Restrict cross-origin requests if you worry about security.)
- bilekas 3y ago
  Are iframes still fully supported across all browsers though?
gochi 3y ago
You're basically suggesting implementing JS within HTML, which htmx exists on a technicality, but not sure that's something we should be pushing at all. We're just spreading JS problems to HTML which is a perfectly fine language.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Also, JSX is pretty much literally this. But yes, HTML was clearly designed for producing output markup; but in reality the people who want to generate markup want to handle nested data, if/else, and loops, because that is better than copy pasting a bunch of markup everywhere and occasionally fat-fingering something.
- johnmw 3y ago
  I'm not sure I follow? I think the GP was just talking about the ability to import other HTML fragments without JS? Something like: <fragment href="site-menu.html"/> Which would load my shared site wide menu html into the parent div. I'm not sure why JS would be needed here? (i.e in the same way html <select> elements are interactive without needing "JS"). Going a little more out there, what about cross domain imports for easy web component consumption? <fragment href="https://weather-widget.org?location=london" /> I can't see how this would be less secure than current cross domain JS imports? It used to be sorta possible with HTML Imports but that spec got dropped [1]. [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/html-imports/ https://www.w3.org/TR/html-imports/

mmcnl 3y ago

That's why I love Vue as well. It's developer & product-focused. No fancy marketing. Great docs. Approachable maintainers.

aerio 3y ago
Fantastic docs, and primo documentation is not to be underestimated. Picking it up was a cinch. Personally I love single file components. In specified having html, js and my scss in the same file, but split into <template>, <script setup>, and <style>. Nuxt 3 is fantastic DX.