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"Every country in the world has their share of far right bozos" I'd suggest you follow the links I gave you. "In this first English-language book on the Azov

by gdy 3y ago

"Every country in the world has their share of far right bozos" I'd suggest you follow the links I gave you. "In this first English-language book on the Azov movement, Michael Colborne explains how Azov came to be and continues to exploit Ukraine’s fractured social and political situation—including the only ongoing war on European soil – to build one of the most ambitious and dangerous far-right movements in the world. Michael Colborne ... has been part of the Bellingcat Monitoring Project team at the investigative journalism website Bellingcat, primarily researching Ukraine’s far right." And by the way, what other country made a neo-Nazi brigade a part of its army? "And they are putting their lives where their mouths are" Not sure what's your point. Nazis were doing that too.

neoromantique 3y ago
>And by the way, what other country made a neo-Nazi brigade a part of its army? Literally all of them, including Russia of course(which has multiple).
- pandaman 3y ago
  Are you able to name a couple, or even one, if multiple are too hard?
  - neoromantique 3y ago
    Wagner and its sub Rusich? Both are directly funded by Russia (as recently admitted by Putin himself). You can possibly claim that it is PMC rather than direct Russian military, but then there is the recent ultimatum given to Wagner troops -- Join Russian military ranks or leave.
    - pandaman 3y ago
      Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever, as you noticed yourself, it's a PMC, so it's not a part of the military. And the ultimatum confirms that (you cannot demand people who are part of the military to join the military). As for "Rusich" relation to "Wagner" there are just Western journalists claiming that. "Wagner" is not very secretive and Prigozhin is making more videos than some ecelebs yet he never mentioned that nor has shown any "Rusich" troops. Was it all you had?
      - neoromantique 3y ago
        >Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever. lol, I'm done. Edit: Looked through comment history and it makes sense now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30731180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30731180 You're a joke, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
        pandaman 3y ago
        Sure, and you should not be lying though.
      - gdy 3y ago
        "Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever" Well, this sure looks like an evidence of Wagner's commander having a neo-Nazi tattoo [0][1]. Besides Utkin's personality there doesn't seem to be anything else. [0] https://t.me/concordgroup_official/729 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/729 [1] https://t.me/concordgroup_official/736 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/736
        pandaman 3y ago
        What's the answer? It doesn't play audio for me.
        gdy 3y ago
        Essentially lack of denial. Weird mix of 'Utkin was undercover among Nazis' and 'to fight Nazism one needs to try it himself'. By the way, Bellingcat claims that Utkin has a minor position in Wagner.
        pandaman 3y ago
        I'd imagine if they recorded an audio answer they were not being serious, so makes sense you found it weird. Bellingcat claims a lot of things with no evidence, it's not a serious source IMO.
    - gdy 3y ago
      What's the source for Rusich being a part of Wagner? Rusich is despicable.
      - neoromantique 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group#cite_note-:2-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group#cite_note-:2-1 I wanted to verify sources a bit further myself, but alas: https://i.imgur.com/YxG58lR.png https://i.imgur.com/YxG58lR.png To be fair, it is silly to even separate them as they're all fighting hand in hand with regular Russian army with Russian army supplies, so for all intents and purposes they were both part of it. But seeing as the person I was responding to is touting about "powerful Russian military" and "weak Europe" from the comforts of the western middle class, I don't really want to engage in discussion any further.
        gdy 3y ago
        Milchakov was seen on a Wagner photo in Syria and "allegedly since the summer of 2017 a group of 6 people from Rusich fought in Wagner" ("С осени 2017 года у Вагнера в строю якобы целая группа из «Русича» – шесть человек.") [0] So much for Rusich being a part of Wagner. The same source says Wagner killed 5 fighters from Rusich guarding one of Donbass warlords. "so for all intents and purposes they were both part of it" Not really. Rusich is a dirty secret just like Utkin's personality. They are not legitimized in any way. Azov with the Wolfsangel on their banner and Aidar are openly ultra-nationalist and touted by Kyev as heroes. [0] https://www.fontanka.ru/2017/10/19/101/ https://www.fontanka.ru/2017/10/19/101/
        neoromantique 3y ago
        As I said, I took it off wiki and I did not verify sources further due to lack of interest in this angle (Wagner is equally despicable in my view). Russia and Russian Military have a long and proven track record of lying without any shame or remorse, so I don't really care what the "official" standing of these units is. They are fed by Russia, armed by Russia and controlled by Russia, everything else is "Пыль в глаза". Without downplaying the troubling beginnings of Azov (who aren't the worst offenders by a mile if you look at 2014-2015, to be honest) -- it has little bearing in 2023. Ukrainian army went a long way cleaning up their ranks and becoming a professional army since then, they had trials and punished their own soldiers for committing crimes in ATO, which Russian side not only did not do, but encouraged. The World is holding Ukraine to an impossible standard right now, magnifying every individual case and person to paint the whole country in bad light while turning the blind eye to one to Russian atrocities (See HRW about Cluster munitions for Ukraine vs silence on Russia using all sorts of forbidden weaponry).
lisasays 3y ago
The same Michael Colborne this commenter is citing has also written that he "wouldn't call [the Azov Movement] explicitly a neo-Nazi movement", and told Haaretz in 2022: "After the first few years of its formation, only a small minority of members had far right connections. ... The Azov Battalion and the entire Azov movement are almost completely untainted by antisemitism." Not that I'm defending Azov. Just that I don't think that this commenter's apparent concerns about Azov's political beliefs are what they seem. I don't think they really care as to whether Azov is now, or ever was neo-Nazi in any substantive sense. It's just a topic they like to through around to push people's emotional buttons, and distract from far more obvious and important issues. Pretty much exactly like Putin is doing whenever he plays the Nazi card.
- gdy 3y ago
  "only a small minority of members had far right connections" Of course its commanders are a minority. "untainted by antisemitism" So it's ok to hate other nationalities if it's not Jews? No one idolizing Bandera and the likes of him cannot be untainted by Nazism. "I don't think they really" Pretending to read other person's mind and accuse them of insincerity based on that makes a poor argument. "to push people's emotional buttons, and distract " You mean people in Western countries might learn whom they are helping and ask questions like "why exactly have we been doing this"?
  - lisasays 3y ago
    You mean those naive, brainwashed fools in Western countries might learn ... We know all about the topic. However, it's clear from the overall tone of how you communicate here (and your endless evasions when cornered on simple factual matters) that you are either not capable of, or are simply not interested in anything even remotely resembling a productive discussion about it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - gdy 3y ago

by gdy 3y ago

neoromantique 3y ago

>And by the way, what other country made a neo-Nazi brigade a part of its army? Literally all of them, including Russia of course(which has multiple).

pandaman 3y ago
Are you able to name a couple, or even one, if multiple are too hard?
- neoromantique 3y ago
  Wagner and its sub Rusich? Both are directly funded by Russia (as recently admitted by Putin himself). You can possibly claim that it is PMC rather than direct Russian military, but then there is the recent ultimatum given to Wagner troops -- Join Russian military ranks or leave.
  - pandaman 3y ago
    Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever, as you noticed yourself, it's a PMC, so it's not a part of the military. And the ultimatum confirms that (you cannot demand people who are part of the military to join the military). As for "Rusich" relation to "Wagner" there are just Western journalists claiming that. "Wagner" is not very secretive and Prigozhin is making more videos than some ecelebs yet he never mentioned that nor has shown any "Rusich" troops. Was it all you had?
    - neoromantique 3y ago
      >Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever. lol, I'm done. Edit: Looked through comment history and it makes sense now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30731180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30731180 You're a joke, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
      - pandaman 3y ago
        Sure, and you should not be lying though.
    - gdy 3y ago
      "Even if we consider "Wagner" to be "neo-nazi" with no evidence what so ever" Well, this sure looks like an evidence of Wagner's commander having a neo-Nazi tattoo [0][1]. Besides Utkin's personality there doesn't seem to be anything else. [0] https://t.me/concordgroup_official/729 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/729 [1] https://t.me/concordgroup_official/736 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/736
      - pandaman 3y ago
        What's the answer? It doesn't play audio for me.
        gdy 3y ago
        Essentially lack of denial. Weird mix of 'Utkin was undercover among Nazis' and 'to fight Nazism one needs to try it himself'. By the way, Bellingcat claims that Utkin has a minor position in Wagner.
        pandaman 3y ago
        I'd imagine if they recorded an audio answer they were not being serious, so makes sense you found it weird. Bellingcat claims a lot of things with no evidence, it's not a serious source IMO.
  - gdy 3y ago
    What's the source for Rusich being a part of Wagner? Rusich is despicable.
    - neoromantique 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group#cite_note-:2-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group#cite_note-:2-1 I wanted to verify sources a bit further myself, but alas: https://i.imgur.com/YxG58lR.png https://i.imgur.com/YxG58lR.png To be fair, it is silly to even separate them as they're all fighting hand in hand with regular Russian army with Russian army supplies, so for all intents and purposes they were both part of it. But seeing as the person I was responding to is touting about "powerful Russian military" and "weak Europe" from the comforts of the western middle class, I don't really want to engage in discussion any further.
      - gdy 3y ago
        Milchakov was seen on a Wagner photo in Syria and "allegedly since the summer of 2017 a group of 6 people from Rusich fought in Wagner" ("С осени 2017 года у Вагнера в строю якобы целая группа из «Русича» – шесть человек.") [0] So much for Rusich being a part of Wagner. The same source says Wagner killed 5 fighters from Rusich guarding one of Donbass warlords. "so for all intents and purposes they were both part of it" Not really. Rusich is a dirty secret just like Utkin's personality. They are not legitimized in any way. Azov with the Wolfsangel on their banner and Aidar are openly ultra-nationalist and touted by Kyev as heroes. [0] https://www.fontanka.ru/2017/10/19/101/ https://www.fontanka.ru/2017/10/19/101/
        neoromantique 3y ago
        As I said, I took it off wiki and I did not verify sources further due to lack of interest in this angle (Wagner is equally despicable in my view). Russia and Russian Military have a long and proven track record of lying without any shame or remorse, so I don't really care what the "official" standing of these units is. They are fed by Russia, armed by Russia and controlled by Russia, everything else is "Пыль в глаза". Without downplaying the troubling beginnings of Azov (who aren't the worst offenders by a mile if you look at 2014-2015, to be honest) -- it has little bearing in 2023. Ukrainian army went a long way cleaning up their ranks and becoming a professional army since then, they had trials and punished their own soldiers for committing crimes in ATO, which Russian side not only did not do, but encouraged. The World is holding Ukraine to an impossible standard right now, magnifying every individual case and person to paint the whole country in bad light while turning the blind eye to one to Russian atrocities (See HRW about Cluster munitions for Ukraine vs silence on Russia using all sorts of forbidden weaponry).

lisasays 3y ago

The same Michael Colborne this commenter is citing has also written that he "wouldn't call [the Azov Movement] explicitly a neo-Nazi movement", and told Haaretz in 2022: "After the first few years of its formation, only a small minority of members had far right connections. ... The Azov Battalion and the entire Azov movement are almost completely untainted by antisemitism." Not that I'm defending Azov. Just that I don't think that this commenter's apparent concerns about Azov's political beliefs are what they seem. I don't think they really care as to whether Azov is now, or ever was neo-Nazi in any substantive sense. It's just a topic they like to through around to push people's emotional buttons, and distract from far more obvious and important issues. Pretty much exactly like Putin is doing whenever he plays the Nazi card.

gdy 3y ago
"only a small minority of members had far right connections" Of course its commanders are a minority. "untainted by antisemitism" So it's ok to hate other nationalities if it's not Jews? No one idolizing Bandera and the likes of him cannot be untainted by Nazism. "I don't think they really" Pretending to read other person's mind and accuse them of insincerity based on that makes a poor argument. "to push people's emotional buttons, and distract " You mean people in Western countries might learn whom they are helping and ask questions like "why exactly have we been doing this"?
- lisasays 3y ago
  You mean those naive, brainwashed fools in Western countries might learn ... We know all about the topic. However, it's clear from the overall tone of how you communicate here (and your endless evasions when cornered on simple factual matters) that you are either not capable of, or are simply not interested in anything even remotely resembling a productive discussion about it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gdy 3y ago