9 ms·

Macron floats social media cuts during riots

59 points by jacooper 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
self_awareness 3y ago
It's actually pretty horrifying, because blaming video games suggest that they have no idea what is the real reason for those riots.
- Zealotux 3y ago
  I’ll refrain from getting too political on HN, but as a French I tell you: Macron is well aware video games aren’t to blame there.
  - jasonvorhe 3y ago
    He can't just say something along the lines of "oh yeah, my policies are what the youth (and not just them) is taking issue with so we'll go back to the drawing board on these and see if we can do better by the people".
  - Schnouki 3y ago
    Yep. But hey, blame video games instead of his policy, and maybe next time old people will vote for him instead of Le Pen!
    - zirgs 3y ago
      Macron can't run for president again.
      - literalAardvark 3y ago
        Ah, that does explain why he gives exactly zero fucks about any of his work.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Is this a new thing in France? People have been blaming video games and movies in the US for a really long time now
  - Ialdaboth 3y ago
    This. Macron knows perfectly what he is doing, and why, and for what objective and for whom benefit. The guy was dancing in an Elton John concert when the cities were burning.
- dekken_ 3y ago
  Because they think they're the teachers/parents of the populace and they have the power to take away our "toys"? The existence of nudge units I think also supports this, insofar as governments think they can tell people how to live, even if it's supposed to be the citizens which tell governments what to do.
- jedisct1 3y ago
  The real reason is that kids wanted to have some fun, post cool videos on Telegram/Snapchat, and see their city's name added to the map. Just like during protests. Rioters don't care about what the protest is for, they do it for the adrenaline. That being said, looking at the videos during the riots, a lot of them really looked like video games. In Paris, rioters even shot prostitutes as if they were in GTA.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    On what basis are you assuming the role of spokeperson for all protestors and rioters? People live every day with the fear and grief that this could be them, or their friend, or their son. They care enough to take real risks to make their issues heard. It's so deeply cowardly to sit comfortably on the internet and say they don't really mean it when their every action says they do.
    - jedisct1 3y ago
      During the yellow vest protests, I was lurking in groups where rioters planned their actions. A lot was also organized in plain sight in the comments of websites like demosphere. And I guarantee that they didn't care at all about what the protests were about. They were just looking for random protests to join. Adrenaline is what they were after.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        And to you this feels like sufficient authority to speak on the motivations and values of protestors generally? A protest sparked by a completely different event?
        jedisct1 3y ago
        We're not talking about protesters. The riots were sparked by a completely different event, but "C'était pour s'amuser" https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/emeutes-sursis-et-bracelets-electroniques-pour-dix-hommes-dans-l-oise_AD-202307030964.html https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/emeutes-sursis-et-brace... Comments on the Telegram chats don't suggest more maturity.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >It's actually pretty horrifying, because blaming video games suggest that they have no idea what is the real reason for those riots. The Macron quote I heard didn't blame video games. Macron said that social media encouraged rioters to riot, and that while doing so they felt the rush that they had felt while playing video games.
Eumenes 3y ago
Wasn't the arab spring heavily organized over social media? If the government can force social media companies to enforce certain flavors of moderation, it seems like they could get away with this too.
- pauldenton 3y ago
  That's not mentioning Zuckerberg dumping 400 million dollars into the 2020 election
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    He was "fortifying" it !
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
"they change the way young people relate to reality" Getting very Principal Skinner "No, It's The Children Who Are Wrong" vibes here.
martius 3y ago
I have zero sympathy for Macron, but the article seems to miss an important aspect: it was mentioned in front of ~200 mayors of cities where the riots are happening. I believe he said this to satisfy his audience, and maybe to try to put pressure on social media so that they cooperate with authorities (to identify leaders and/or limit coordination between rioters). It's bad because he's still pushing the overton window to the right, pretending this is OK for a the leader of a democracy to consider this. But I don't think they are seriously thinking about cutting social media.
- thomond 3y ago
  > I believe he said this to satisfy his audience So Macron being Macron.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    So a politician being a politician.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Those riots were indefensible and the state actually went very softly on them partly not to throw oil on the fire. There is nothing authoritarian or 'right wing' in suggesting that limiting communication means of rioters, looters, and, frankly violent thugs, should maybe be considered. Rioting is not a human right, neither is communicating to organise violence and looting. In fact, I believe that there are plans to cut mobile networks in some situations like terrorist attacks. Frankly what has just happened is getting close to that territory. IMHO the events and the reactions are worrying and show that French society is now as dangerously divided as what we've seen in the US for instance in relation to the 6th January events.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    For context, France has seen a constant wave of strikes and demonstrations for months and months now, with people getting beat to death, going blind, dying of gases etc. and the government not moving an inch. and doing almost nothing regarding police violence. So sure, rioters are going overboard, but expecting pacific demonstrations at this point is kind of a lost cause.
Spivak 3y ago
Cutting off communication during protests is a great litmus test for identifying authoritarian regimes. So great to see Macron going down that path. Even if you don't actually do it threatening it carries the same weight, fall in line or I'll do it is just doing it. Can't say it's unexpected, it's not like France has a history of contesting government working out well for them /s The fact that he called out Snapchat and TikTok is basically all you need to know that he doesn't believe it will work and is just targeting the social media of young people.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  These were not 'protests' but senseless riots with huge damage to property, looting, and direct assault on police and elected representatives. He does not suggest cutting communication during peaceful protests.
  - forgetfulness 3y ago
    Every Government that is faced with situations such as these would qualify the protests as "property, looting, and direct assault on police". It's often half the truth. If this wasn't a Western country, media would be speaking of ethnic conflict, of the Government led by the leader elected by the white majority of the country enacting more authoritarian measures to quell social unrest.
    - lloeki 3y ago
      (Some) rioters voiced exactly these three goals themselves, on record, no government involved.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Peace doesn't get you very far unless you have some other type of leverage to apply. My country is quite proud and eager to bring up one of its founding events in which a coordinated group of thugs dawned disguises and destroyed a few million in 2023 dollars worth of property (tea). If you want changes you need to break some shit and bash a few redcoats. Same thing happened in the 60s, Congress passed civil rights legislation because shit was burning and was going to continue burning if they didn't.
willcipriano 3y ago
Macron a tip: Just call it disinformation and few will complain
expertentipp 3y ago
> The killing of a 17-year-old of North African descent One nuance picked up by Polish media - the car had Polish license plates. It's a scam disguised as an investment. Well off people get legit car lease for a high end car, then are baited to "rent it" abroad for a monthly payment. Sometimes receive multiple months upfront payment. Then car "vanishes", while of course physically driving with original license plates on the French roads, and the payments stop. Basically car version of "buy an apartment with a mortgage and rent it, the tenant will pay your mortgage, after X years you have an apartment for free". The victims are people who are even more greedy than well off. The 17 years old was likely linked to drug dealing and to financial scam, driving recklessly and running away from police.
- pdar4123 3y ago
  What is your point? He deserved to be murdered? This seems irrelevant, “he likely was maybe guilty of something…” and?
  - expertentipp 3y ago
    17 years old driving recklessly a sport car with foreign license plates, running away from the police. The situation strongly points he is linked to drug dealing, financial scam, car thievery, or all of them. What measures are expected in such situation, what was he expecting to happen?
    - q87b 3y ago
      None of these alleged offenses justify punishment without a trial. None of them justify death.
      - stronglikedan 3y ago
        Death may not be justified, but neither were his actions. He put himself in a position where this could be an outcome. I'm not saying it was justified, but it did start with him, not the police. The mere act of skydiving doesn't justify death, but it is a possible outcome nonetheless.
openyoureyes 3y ago
[flagged]
jedisct1 3y ago
This is what we will get from these riots: - Massive tax increases - Less tourism - Economy will get worse - Price increases - No more investments in the suburbs - Less libraries and other free services - More surveillance - More police - Restrictions on communications Just because of kids who wanted an adrenaline rush.
- rozenmd 3y ago
  > because of kids who wanted an adrenaline rush. Just because a cop decided to pull the trigger on a 17 year old instead of literally any other course of action, you mean? Edit: sorry, emotional response.
  - yostrovs 3y ago
    It's as much of an overreaction to shoot the driver as it is to riot and burn cities in response to the shooting.
  - Philorandroid 3y ago
    This comment echoes a lot of the sentiments I'm seeing in this thread. I have to wonder if holding the proverbial gun to the head of the world around you, ready to pull the trigger at any well-timed injustice, paying lip service to the destruction of private property in spite of the authoritarian sentiments it fosters, and generally thumbing one's nose at the idea that it's entirely possible that neither the police nor the rioters are in the right, is the intellectually-honest approach?
    - LargeTomato 3y ago
      That's a lot of really big words. Anyway, the French protest very often. People joke that it's their national passtime. If these protestors are almost entirely children I have a hard time believing this is about civil injustice and I am more inclined to believe this is just for fun and clout.
      - Philorandroid 3y ago
jmyeet 3y ago
Let's just stop and consider that the police killing one teenager sparks riots in France. In the US, that's just a Thursday [1]. The most disgusting part of all this is how easily and quickly people will dehumanize the victim, often looking for post facto justification (eg [2][3]). You see in the comments here, like alleging the victim may have been involved in drug dealing, car scams of otherwise driving recklessly. The obvious follow-up is "so it's ok to murder the victim then?" Remember that Macron is the supposed centrist here, which just goes to prove that there are no centrists. Centrists are simply conservative reactionaries either too embarrassed to admit it or lying about it for political gain. One other point about France in particular. The submitted article isn't French so specifically says "North African descent". French media does not do this. As a consequence, foreign media often repeats what French media says and makes an error in doing so. Instead of race, French media will simply say "immigrant", even if that "immigrant" is a French citizen for 3 generations but they are ethnically Algerian (or other North African). I can't imagine cutting off social media working in Europe (eg VPNs), let alone surviving a legal challenge. Even suggesting it should give anyone pause however and expose the truth that Macron here is a reactionary. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-us-killed-100-children-2015-data-shows/story?id=77190654 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-us-killed-100-children-2015... [2]: https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-neely-arrest-record-outrage-grows-subway-death-1798248 https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-neely-arrest-record-outrage-... [3]: https://nypost.com/2021/11/15/sole-survivor-of-rittenhouse-shootings-has-criminal-past-report/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/15/sole-survivor-of-rittenhouse-s...
- csomar 3y ago
  > I can't imagine cutting off social media working in Europe (eg VPNs), let alone surviving a legal challenge. It's easy to imagine actually: You open the Tiktok app and the content doesn't load. VPNs might get around that though.
- BlargMcLarg 3y ago
  There's nothing centrist or conservatist about gatekeeping and controlling the narrative. Keep that polarizing stuff out of here.
- michtzik 3y ago

59 points by jacooper 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

It's actually pretty horrifying, because blaming video games suggest that they have no idea what is the real reason for those riots.

Zealotux 3y ago
I’ll refrain from getting too political on HN, but as a French I tell you: Macron is well aware video games aren’t to blame there.
- jasonvorhe 3y ago
  He can't just say something along the lines of "oh yeah, my policies are what the youth (and not just them) is taking issue with so we'll go back to the drawing board on these and see if we can do better by the people".
- Schnouki 3y ago
  Yep. But hey, blame video games instead of his policy, and maybe next time old people will vote for him instead of Le Pen!
  - zirgs 3y ago
    Macron can't run for president again.
    - literalAardvark 3y ago
      Ah, that does explain why he gives exactly zero fucks about any of his work.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Is this a new thing in France? People have been blaming video games and movies in the US for a really long time now
- Ialdaboth 3y ago
  This. Macron knows perfectly what he is doing, and why, and for what objective and for whom benefit. The guy was dancing in an Elton John concert when the cities were burning.
dekken_ 3y ago
Because they think they're the teachers/parents of the populace and they have the power to take away our "toys"? The existence of nudge units I think also supports this, insofar as governments think they can tell people how to live, even if it's supposed to be the citizens which tell governments what to do.
jedisct1 3y ago
The real reason is that kids wanted to have some fun, post cool videos on Telegram/Snapchat, and see their city's name added to the map. Just like during protests. Rioters don't care about what the protest is for, they do it for the adrenaline. That being said, looking at the videos during the riots, a lot of them really looked like video games. In Paris, rioters even shot prostitutes as if they were in GTA.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  On what basis are you assuming the role of spokeperson for all protestors and rioters? People live every day with the fear and grief that this could be them, or their friend, or their son. They care enough to take real risks to make their issues heard. It's so deeply cowardly to sit comfortably on the internet and say they don't really mean it when their every action says they do.
  - jedisct1 3y ago
    During the yellow vest protests, I was lurking in groups where rioters planned their actions. A lot was also organized in plain sight in the comments of websites like demosphere. And I guarantee that they didn't care at all about what the protests were about. They were just looking for random protests to join. Adrenaline is what they were after.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      And to you this feels like sufficient authority to speak on the motivations and values of protestors generally? A protest sparked by a completely different event?
      - jedisct1 3y ago
        We're not talking about protesters. The riots were sparked by a completely different event, but "C'était pour s'amuser" https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/emeutes-sursis-et-bracelets-electroniques-pour-dix-hommes-dans-l-oise_AD-202307030964.html https://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/emeutes-sursis-et-brace... Comments on the Telegram chats don't suggest more maturity.
TMWNN 3y ago
>It's actually pretty horrifying, because blaming video games suggest that they have no idea what is the real reason for those riots. The Macron quote I heard didn't blame video games. Macron said that social media encouraged rioters to riot, and that while doing so they felt the rush that they had felt while playing video games.

Eumenes 3y ago

Wasn't the arab spring heavily organized over social media? If the government can force social media companies to enforce certain flavors of moderation, it seems like they could get away with this too.

pauldenton 3y ago
That's not mentioning Zuckerberg dumping 400 million dollars into the 2020 election
- Eumenes 3y ago
  He was "fortifying" it !

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

"they change the way young people relate to reality" Getting very Principal Skinner "No, It's The Children Who Are Wrong" vibes here.

martius 3y ago

I have zero sympathy for Macron, but the article seems to miss an important aspect: it was mentioned in front of ~200 mayors of cities where the riots are happening. I believe he said this to satisfy his audience, and maybe to try to put pressure on social media so that they cooperate with authorities (to identify leaders and/or limit coordination between rioters). It's bad because he's still pushing the overton window to the right, pretending this is OK for a the leader of a democracy to consider this. But I don't think they are seriously thinking about cutting social media.

thomond 3y ago
> I believe he said this to satisfy his audience So Macron being Macron.
- dylan604 3y ago
  So a politician being a politician.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Those riots were indefensible and the state actually went very softly on them partly not to throw oil on the fire. There is nothing authoritarian or 'right wing' in suggesting that limiting communication means of rioters, looters, and, frankly violent thugs, should maybe be considered. Rioting is not a human right, neither is communicating to organise violence and looting. In fact, I believe that there are plans to cut mobile networks in some situations like terrorist attacks. Frankly what has just happened is getting close to that territory. IMHO the events and the reactions are worrying and show that French society is now as dangerously divided as what we've seen in the US for instance in relation to the 6th January events.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  For context, France has seen a constant wave of strikes and demonstrations for months and months now, with people getting beat to death, going blind, dying of gases etc. and the government not moving an inch. and doing almost nothing regarding police violence. So sure, rioters are going overboard, but expecting pacific demonstrations at this point is kind of a lost cause.

Spivak 3y ago

Cutting off communication during protests is a great litmus test for identifying authoritarian regimes. So great to see Macron going down that path. Even if you don't actually do it threatening it carries the same weight, fall in line or I'll do it is just doing it. Can't say it's unexpected, it's not like France has a history of contesting government working out well for them /s The fact that he called out Snapchat and TikTok is basically all you need to know that he doesn't believe it will work and is just targeting the social media of young people.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
These were not 'protests' but senseless riots with huge damage to property, looting, and direct assault on police and elected representatives. He does not suggest cutting communication during peaceful protests.
- forgetfulness 3y ago
  Every Government that is faced with situations such as these would qualify the protests as "property, looting, and direct assault on police". It's often half the truth. If this wasn't a Western country, media would be speaking of ethnic conflict, of the Government led by the leader elected by the white majority of the country enacting more authoritarian measures to quell social unrest.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    (Some) rioters voiced exactly these three goals themselves, on record, no government involved.
- flangola7 3y ago
  Peace doesn't get you very far unless you have some other type of leverage to apply. My country is quite proud and eager to bring up one of its founding events in which a coordinated group of thugs dawned disguises and destroyed a few million in 2023 dollars worth of property (tea). If you want changes you need to break some shit and bash a few redcoats. Same thing happened in the 60s, Congress passed civil rights legislation because shit was burning and was going to continue burning if they didn't.

willcipriano 3y ago

Macron a tip: Just call it disinformation and few will complain

expertentipp 3y ago

> The killing of a 17-year-old of North African descent One nuance picked up by Polish media - the car had Polish license plates. It's a scam disguised as an investment. Well off people get legit car lease for a high end car, then are baited to "rent it" abroad for a monthly payment. Sometimes receive multiple months upfront payment. Then car "vanishes", while of course physically driving with original license plates on the French roads, and the payments stop. Basically car version of "buy an apartment with a mortgage and rent it, the tenant will pay your mortgage, after X years you have an apartment for free". The victims are people who are even more greedy than well off. The 17 years old was likely linked to drug dealing and to financial scam, driving recklessly and running away from police.

pdar4123 3y ago
What is your point? He deserved to be murdered? This seems irrelevant, “he likely was maybe guilty of something…” and?
- expertentipp 3y ago
  17 years old driving recklessly a sport car with foreign license plates, running away from the police. The situation strongly points he is linked to drug dealing, financial scam, car thievery, or all of them. What measures are expected in such situation, what was he expecting to happen?
  - q87b 3y ago
    None of these alleged offenses justify punishment without a trial. None of them justify death.
    - stronglikedan 3y ago
      Death may not be justified, but neither were his actions. He put himself in a position where this could be an outcome. I'm not saying it was justified, but it did start with him, not the police. The mere act of skydiving doesn't justify death, but it is a possible outcome nonetheless.

openyoureyes 3y ago

[flagged]

jedisct1 3y ago

This is what we will get from these riots: - Massive tax increases - Less tourism - Economy will get worse - Price increases - No more investments in the suburbs - Less libraries and other free services - More surveillance - More police - Restrictions on communications Just because of kids who wanted an adrenaline rush.

rozenmd 3y ago
> because of kids who wanted an adrenaline rush. Just because a cop decided to pull the trigger on a 17 year old instead of literally any other course of action, you mean? Edit: sorry, emotional response.
- yostrovs 3y ago
  It's as much of an overreaction to shoot the driver as it is to riot and burn cities in response to the shooting.
- Philorandroid 3y ago
  This comment echoes a lot of the sentiments I'm seeing in this thread. I have to wonder if holding the proverbial gun to the head of the world around you, ready to pull the trigger at any well-timed injustice, paying lip service to the destruction of private property in spite of the authoritarian sentiments it fosters, and generally thumbing one's nose at the idea that it's entirely possible that neither the police nor the rioters are in the right, is the intellectually-honest approach?
  - LargeTomato 3y ago
    That's a lot of really big words. Anyway, the French protest very often. People joke that it's their national passtime. If these protestors are almost entirely children I have a hard time believing this is about civil injustice and I am more inclined to believe this is just for fun and clout.
    - Philorandroid 3y ago

jmyeet 3y ago

Let's just stop and consider that the police killing one teenager sparks riots in France. In the US, that's just a Thursday [1]. The most disgusting part of all this is how easily and quickly people will dehumanize the victim, often looking for post facto justification (eg [2][3]). You see in the comments here, like alleging the victim may have been involved in drug dealing, car scams of otherwise driving recklessly. The obvious follow-up is "so it's ok to murder the victim then?" Remember that Macron is the supposed centrist here, which just goes to prove that there are no centrists. Centrists are simply conservative reactionaries either too embarrassed to admit it or lying about it for political gain. One other point about France in particular. The submitted article isn't French so specifically says "North African descent". French media does not do this. As a consequence, foreign media often repeats what French media says and makes an error in doing so. Instead of race, French media will simply say "immigrant", even if that "immigrant" is a French citizen for 3 generations but they are ethnically Algerian (or other North African). I can't imagine cutting off social media working in Europe (eg VPNs), let alone surviving a legal challenge. Even suggesting it should give anyone pause however and expose the truth that Macron here is a reactionary. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-us-killed-100-children-2015-data-shows/story?id=77190654 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-us-killed-100-children-2015... [2]: https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-neely-arrest-record-outrage-grows-subway-death-1798248 https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-neely-arrest-record-outrage-... [3]: https://nypost.com/2021/11/15/sole-survivor-of-rittenhouse-shootings-has-criminal-past-report/ https://nypost.com/2021/11/15/sole-survivor-of-rittenhouse-s...

csomar 3y ago
> I can't imagine cutting off social media working in Europe (eg VPNs), let alone surviving a legal challenge. It's easy to imagine actually: You open the Tiktok app and the content doesn't load. VPNs might get around that though.
BlargMcLarg 3y ago
There's nothing centrist or conservatist about gatekeeping and controlling the narrative. Keep that polarizing stuff out of here.
michtzik 3y ago