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Electricity generation is decreasing year over year in Germany since 2015… but the fact is that it should be increasing to electrify heating and transportation.

Electricity generation is decreasing year over year in Germany since 2015… but the fact is that it should be increasing to electrify heating and transportation. What is really happening is that industries are moving out of Germany to help pretend that the country CO2 emissions are better as no one really count imported CO2 in finished product.

locallost 3y ago
Perhaps, but it was until now not electrifying heating and transportation, so reduction is obviously a positive thing. Nothing beats emissions of a kWh you saved. The question might be, was there something sacrificed to do that, e.g. did economy suffer? This would be bad, but it's not the case, the GDP is still going up. The savings are related to energy efficiency and this will reap benefits basically forever.
- mahkeiro 3y ago
  There is no saving (or marginally) it’s just heavy industries and energy consuming process leaving Germany (BASF for instance). Overall just a displacement of the problem. We don’t care about GDP, what matters is global CO2 emission. In 2023 13.4% of new cars are electric in Germany but electricity production is the lowest in 15 years, go figure.
  - locallost 3y ago
    Sorry, but this is total nonsense. I realize it's not in the spirit of HN, but it's obvious you did not check any data at all.
    - mahkeiro 3y ago
      Ok energy-charts.info is providing all info regarding installed power and electricity generation for Germany. For heavy industries leaving Germany: * https://cen.acs.org/business/finance/BASF-cutting-back-main-site/101/web/2023/02 https://cen.acs.org/business/finance/BASF-cutting-back-main-... * https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/24/basf-cut-jobs-energy-crisis-germany-recession https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/24/basf-cut-jo... * https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2022-10-20/germanys-glass-industry-sees-bleak-future https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2022-10-20/germanys-glas... * https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-industry-europe-energy-prices-basf/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-industry-europe-ener... Here you can see that industrial part of the GDP is shrinking: * https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/manufacturing-value-added-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/manufacturing-value-add... What are your sources?
      - locallost 3y ago
        BASF is a drop in the bucket and it left not because of high electricity prices like you claimed, but high natural gas prices which they directly use for production. e.g. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/basf-could-cut-output-further-amid-fragile-gas-supply-2022-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/basf-could-cut-outpu... > BASF is already reducing production of ammonia, which relies heavily on natural gas, and sourcing some it its ammonia needs from outside Europe, where gas prices are lower. Heavy industries in general will take a while to electrify (globally), you can read on the challenges of that e.g. here https://www.iea.org/articles/the-challenge-of-reaching-zero-emissions-in-heavy-industry https://www.iea.org/articles/the-challenge-of-reaching-zero-... So again, sorry, but you are off.
        mahkeiro 3y ago
        Basic fact you don’t seem to grasp is that electricity price in Europe are directly dependent on gas price as the price is governed by the price of the last capacity called which in Europe are gas driven… Chemical plants but not only as the articles mentioned but glass ceramic etc are using large amount of electricity. The current decrease in electricity usage(that’s not only happening in Germany but throughout all Western Europe) is caused by industrial process moving out of Europe.
        locallost 3y ago
        You seem to be hopping from one vaguely connected argument to another. I am aware that gas price sets the electricity price when deployed, but it has nothing to do with BASF, they were hit hard by specifically gas prices because they use gas. I already posted the link(s). And furthermore, that BASF went to China in 2023 did not affect electricity use in 2020, nor is BASF responsible for 50TWh of electricity per year. There is no grand scale industry movement out of Germany.

locallost 3y ago

Perhaps, but it was until now not electrifying heating and transportation, so reduction is obviously a positive thing. Nothing beats emissions of a kWh you saved. The question might be, was there something sacrificed to do that, e.g. did economy suffer? This would be bad, but it's not the case, the GDP is still going up. The savings are related to energy efficiency and this will reap benefits basically forever.

mahkeiro 3y ago
There is no saving (or marginally) it’s just heavy industries and energy consuming process leaving Germany (BASF for instance). Overall just a displacement of the problem. We don’t care about GDP, what matters is global CO2 emission. In 2023 13.4% of new cars are electric in Germany but electricity production is the lowest in 15 years, go figure.
- locallost 3y ago
  Sorry, but this is total nonsense. I realize it's not in the spirit of HN, but it's obvious you did not check any data at all.
  - mahkeiro 3y ago
    Ok energy-charts.info is providing all info regarding installed power and electricity generation for Germany. For heavy industries leaving Germany: * https://cen.acs.org/business/finance/BASF-cutting-back-main-site/101/web/2023/02 https://cen.acs.org/business/finance/BASF-cutting-back-main-... * https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/24/basf-cut-jobs-energy-crisis-germany-recession https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/24/basf-cut-jo... * https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2022-10-20/germanys-glass-industry-sees-bleak-future https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2022-10-20/germanys-glas... * https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-industry-europe-energy-prices-basf/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-industry-europe-ener... Here you can see that industrial part of the GDP is shrinking: * https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/manufacturing-value-added-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/manufacturing-value-add... What are your sources?
    - locallost 3y ago
      BASF is a drop in the bucket and it left not because of high electricity prices like you claimed, but high natural gas prices which they directly use for production. e.g. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/basf-could-cut-output-further-amid-fragile-gas-supply-2022-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/basf-could-cut-outpu... > BASF is already reducing production of ammonia, which relies heavily on natural gas, and sourcing some it its ammonia needs from outside Europe, where gas prices are lower. Heavy industries in general will take a while to electrify (globally), you can read on the challenges of that e.g. here https://www.iea.org/articles/the-challenge-of-reaching-zero-emissions-in-heavy-industry https://www.iea.org/articles/the-challenge-of-reaching-zero-... So again, sorry, but you are off.
      - mahkeiro 3y ago
        Basic fact you don’t seem to grasp is that electricity price in Europe are directly dependent on gas price as the price is governed by the price of the last capacity called which in Europe are gas driven… Chemical plants but not only as the articles mentioned but glass ceramic etc are using large amount of electricity. The current decrease in electricity usage(that’s not only happening in Germany but throughout all Western Europe) is caused by industrial process moving out of Europe.
        locallost 3y ago
        You seem to be hopping from one vaguely connected argument to another. I am aware that gas price sets the electricity price when deployed, but it has nothing to do with BASF, they were hit hard by specifically gas prices because they use gas. I already posted the link(s). And furthermore, that BASF went to China in 2023 did not affect electricity use in 2020, nor is BASF responsible for 50TWh of electricity per year. There is no grand scale industry movement out of Germany.