5 ms·

I'm looking forward to the day when I stay in a 100$/night hotel and I don't have to pay for my fricking internet. Every motel/hostel has it for free as it shou

by CWIZO 15y ago

I'm looking forward to the day when I stay in a 100$/night hotel and I don't have to pay for my fricking internet. Every motel/hostel has it for free as it should. To me charging for internet (in hotels/resturatns) in 2012 is the same as charging for using the shower or lights.

rmc 15y ago
It's always interesting how the really cheap accomodation (hostels etc.) have free internet, but the expensive accomodation have expensive internet. It's a great example of price being based on what the market can bear. People who stay in cheap hostels will just go without internet, or stay at another hostel that has free internet. People who stay in fancy hotels don't care about €15 (or the company is paying)
- luca-giovanni 15y ago
  Sadly you are so right! Internet nowadays is a utility though so I do think it is rude making people pay for it.
sanswork 15y ago
Every motel/hostel that I've been to with free internet has ended up with internet so slow that its unusable. I'm happy to pay for it to be able to access at faster than dialup speeds. As for why they charge it's because they can. Their target markets are already paying a premium for a room so a small extra charge for internet isn't that much of a deal. People looking for the savings of a hostel are just as likely to go to Starbucks/McDonalds for free internet.
- newman314 15y ago
  Problem is even when you do pay for it (at say a Marriott), it's still slow.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  That's what Opera Turbo is for.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  Just because they charge does not mean they re-invest any of that in infrastructure. If you stay at a hotel with paid wifi and it is full of people who are either tethering from their phones or not using the internet then it will be fast. Stay at a posh hotel where everyone pays out of their expense account and it's likely to be just as slow as if it was free. Not to mention that you only need one person streaming 1080p to put serious strain on the bandwidth.
belphanior 15y ago
Let me tell you a story. A friend of a friend runs an independent midsize hotel here in Germany. They used to offer free internet access. Then one of their guests used the connection to download copyrighted stuff. In due course a nasty letter from a lawyer arrived, demanding payment of around 1000€ and as fighting and losing would have been much more expensive, they payed. They were unable to recover the money, because there was no way to prove which of their guests at that time was responsible. The very next thing they did was to shut down the free internet and bring in an outside company to provide it (with per day and per hour fees for the guests). The reasons: 1) By having someone else legally responsible for the internet connection, they don't have any liability for future copyright violations. 2) All guests are now "helping" to pay back the money they lost.
- icebraining 15y ago
  I'm assuming there's some kind of protection for ISPs, or it'd be impossible to run one in Germany. Couldn't they apply to the same rules, since they're effectively an ISP?
  - DougBTX 15y ago
    The idea of ISP protection is to say that some particular other person is responsible, instead of the ISP, so that they can get sued/fined/imprisoned instead. Looks like these guys were not tracking that.
    - onli 15y ago
      That's simply false (in germany!). The keyword is Access-Provider. See http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html and http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftung.html http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftun...
      - DougBTX 15y ago
        My German isn't good enough to understand those articles, and I'm finding it a bit tricky to understand the Google translation. The jist I'm getting from those two pages is that the access provider isn't liable for what is transmitted if the transfer is initiated by another user. I think the bit I'm referring to would be covered by § 15 paragraph (4), which Google translates to "To comply with existing legal, statutory or contractual retention periods, the service provider may block the data." I think "block" here means "store", in the sense that the user data which includes "Information on the beginning and end and the extent of each use" (paragraph 1) needs to be recorded (and retained) for a period of time required by a different statute. I feel like I only understand about 30% of those documents, I might make more progress with a better translation! http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html
darklajid 15y ago
I run iodine[1] on my server. Maybe it's illegal, maybe it's a grey area - I don't care. Here in Israel free wifi access is the norm, but in DE? They charge an arm and a leg. Switzerland (if we're talking about Swisscom anyway)? They are _insane_. The hotels already rip you off with prices like there's no tomorrow and charge for internet on top. I fire up iodine on my client. If it works: Great. The network was obviously created by morons (it could easily be prevented). Morons won't be able to track me down the short while I'm on their network, on a trip, with a mac address like 'deadbeef' or somesuch nonsense. If it doesn't work? I don't go online and leave to have a couple beers.. 1: http://code.kryo.se/iodine/ http://code.kryo.se/iodine/
- 13rules 15y ago
  That is really cool — never even thought about the possibility of tunneling over DNS ... now I must try it!
  - darklajid 15y ago
    It seems there are projects to improve on iodine. Heyoka [1] seemed interesting for a while, but the authors seem to have abandoned it now. If DNS is not an option: You can tunnel stuff via icmp as well. Still looking for a decent solution (needs to work cross-platform at least for the client) as a fallback if DNS is restricted. And - enjoy, have fun. Don't spoil the fun for all of us by writing an article in a big newspaper about it. :) 1: http://heyoka.sourceforge.net/ http://heyoka.sourceforge.net/
- tripzilch 15y ago
  > but in DE? They charge an arm and a leg. Strongly depends on where you are, apparently. When I was in Berlin, there was free Internet all over the place. In our hostel, the hotel across the street, just about any coffee bar, pub, sandwich stand, pizzeria ... Sometimes you had to ask for a password, other times you could just connect, and other times you had to catch some air network from the place next door. Or maybe that was just Berlin Mitte? Though I went to some places near Cologne and I didn't have to donate a kidney to get online either. Connectivity in the more rural areas can be pretty bad though.
bdunbar 15y ago
To me charging for internet (in hotels/resturatns) in 2012 is the same as charging for using the shower or lights. You are being charged for the lights and the shower when you pay the bill. Or was that you're point and I missed it? It will come, give it some time. Hotels (imho) charge one for the internet because it's a separate utility, the onsite staff are not capable of fixing it [1] when it breaks. Which happens a lot. So they outsource it. When 'internet' is as common a utility as water and light, and as reliable, it will be in the bill, you'll never see it.

by CWIZO 15y ago

rmc 15y ago

It's always interesting how the really cheap accomodation (hostels etc.) have free internet, but the expensive accomodation have expensive internet. It's a great example of price being based on what the market can bear. People who stay in cheap hostels will just go without internet, or stay at another hostel that has free internet. People who stay in fancy hotels don't care about €15 (or the company is paying)

luca-giovanni 15y ago
Sadly you are so right! Internet nowadays is a utility though so I do think it is rude making people pay for it.

sanswork 15y ago

Every motel/hostel that I've been to with free internet has ended up with internet so slow that its unusable. I'm happy to pay for it to be able to access at faster than dialup speeds. As for why they charge it's because they can. Their target markets are already paying a premium for a room so a small extra charge for internet isn't that much of a deal. People looking for the savings of a hostel are just as likely to go to Starbucks/McDonalds for free internet.

newman314 15y ago
Problem is even when you do pay for it (at say a Marriott), it's still slow.
tripzilch 15y ago
That's what Opera Turbo is for.
jiggy2011 15y ago
Just because they charge does not mean they re-invest any of that in infrastructure. If you stay at a hotel with paid wifi and it is full of people who are either tethering from their phones or not using the internet then it will be fast. Stay at a posh hotel where everyone pays out of their expense account and it's likely to be just as slow as if it was free. Not to mention that you only need one person streaming 1080p to put serious strain on the bandwidth.

belphanior 15y ago

Let me tell you a story. A friend of a friend runs an independent midsize hotel here in Germany. They used to offer free internet access. Then one of their guests used the connection to download copyrighted stuff. In due course a nasty letter from a lawyer arrived, demanding payment of around 1000€ and as fighting and losing would have been much more expensive, they payed. They were unable to recover the money, because there was no way to prove which of their guests at that time was responsible. The very next thing they did was to shut down the free internet and bring in an outside company to provide it (with per day and per hour fees for the guests). The reasons: 1) By having someone else legally responsible for the internet connection, they don't have any liability for future copyright violations. 2) All guests are now "helping" to pay back the money they lost.

icebraining 15y ago
I'm assuming there's some kind of protection for ISPs, or it'd be impossible to run one in Germany. Couldn't they apply to the same rules, since they're effectively an ISP?
- DougBTX 15y ago
  The idea of ISP protection is to say that some particular other person is responsible, instead of the ISP, so that they can get sued/fined/imprisoned instead. Looks like these guys were not tracking that.
  - onli 15y ago
    That's simply false (in germany!). The keyword is Access-Provider. See http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html and http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftung.html http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftun...
    - DougBTX 15y ago
      My German isn't good enough to understand those articles, and I'm finding it a bit tricky to understand the Google translation. The jist I'm getting from those two pages is that the access provider isn't liable for what is transmitted if the transfer is initiated by another user. I think the bit I'm referring to would be covered by § 15 paragraph (4), which Google translates to "To comply with existing legal, statutory or contractual retention periods, the service provider may block the data." I think "block" here means "store", in the sense that the user data which includes "Information on the beginning and end and the extent of each use" (paragraph 1) needs to be recorded (and retained) for a period of time required by a different statute. I feel like I only understand about 30% of those documents, I might make more progress with a better translation! http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html

darklajid 15y ago

I run iodine[1] on my server. Maybe it's illegal, maybe it's a grey area - I don't care. Here in Israel free wifi access is the norm, but in DE? They charge an arm and a leg. Switzerland (if we're talking about Swisscom anyway)? They are _insane_. The hotels already rip you off with prices like there's no tomorrow and charge for internet on top. I fire up iodine on my client. If it works: Great. The network was obviously created by morons (it could easily be prevented). Morons won't be able to track me down the short while I'm on their network, on a trip, with a mac address like 'deadbeef' or somesuch nonsense. If it doesn't work? I don't go online and leave to have a couple beers.. 1: http://code.kryo.se/iodine/ http://code.kryo.se/iodine/

13rules 15y ago
That is really cool — never even thought about the possibility of tunneling over DNS ... now I must try it!
- darklajid 15y ago
  It seems there are projects to improve on iodine. Heyoka [1] seemed interesting for a while, but the authors seem to have abandoned it now. If DNS is not an option: You can tunnel stuff via icmp as well. Still looking for a decent solution (needs to work cross-platform at least for the client) as a fallback if DNS is restricted. And - enjoy, have fun. Don't spoil the fun for all of us by writing an article in a big newspaper about it. :) 1: http://heyoka.sourceforge.net/ http://heyoka.sourceforge.net/
tripzilch 15y ago
> but in DE? They charge an arm and a leg. Strongly depends on where you are, apparently. When I was in Berlin, there was free Internet all over the place. In our hostel, the hotel across the street, just about any coffee bar, pub, sandwich stand, pizzeria ... Sometimes you had to ask for a password, other times you could just connect, and other times you had to catch some air network from the place next door. Or maybe that was just Berlin Mitte? Though I went to some places near Cologne and I didn't have to donate a kidney to get online either. Connectivity in the more rural areas can be pretty bad though.

bdunbar 15y ago

To me charging for internet (in hotels/resturatns) in 2012 is the same as charging for using the shower or lights. You are being charged for the lights and the shower when you pay the bill. Or was that you're point and I missed it? It will come, give it some time. Hotels (imho) charge one for the internet because it's a separate utility, the onsite staff are not capable of fixing it [1] when it breaks. Which happens a lot. So they outsource it. When 'internet' is as common a utility as water and light, and as reliable, it will be in the bill, you'll never see it.