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This is why Germany produces almost 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France. https://abload.de/img/img_20230705_133511_84efdp.jpg https://abload.de/img/img_2023

This is why Germany produces almost 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France. https://abload.de/img/img_20230705_133511_84efdp.jpg https://abload.de/img/img_20230705_133511_84efdp.jpg It's mind boggling.

lopis 3y ago
It's.. complicated. Nuclear is super clean at the consumption site, but not super clean at the mining site [0]. And then there's the problem that France's access to cheap uranium is a relic of extractive colonialism, and these countries don't exactly see the fair profits from France's hunger for energy [1]. So yes, France's energy is cleaner, but it's a complicated picture. [0] https://meta.eeb.org/2017/10/18/french-state-owned-company-creates-ecocide-in-niger-to-fuel-its-nuclear-plants/ https://meta.eeb.org/2017/10/18/french-state-owned-company-c... [1] https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161954185.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161954185.pdf
- cubefox 3y ago
  > It's.. complicated. Nuclear is super clean at the consumption site, but not super clean at the mining site [0]. It's almost certainly not complicated. The CO2 produced by mining uranium is irrelevant compared to the CO2 produced by burning coal fuel. > And then there's the problem that France's access to cheap uranium is a relic of extractive colonialism, and these countries don't exactly see the fair profits from France's hunger for energy [1]. Uranium is not a large contributor to nuclear energy cost anyway, so this is no argument against nuclear energy. > So yes, France's energy is cleaner, but it's a complicated picture. I don't see how it is "complicated". Nuclear is clearly much better than Germany's coal+renewable. (Renewable-only was not an option since wind and solar are extremely volatile.)
  - lopis 3y ago
    It's complicated in the political sense. They are spelunking former colonies to meet green energy targets, while those same countries struggle to progress.
    - mahkeiro 3y ago
      What are you talking about? Today less than 12% of French import of uranium are coming from Niger a former French colony. The main sources are Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Australia.
    - adev_ 3y ago
      > It's complicated in the political sense. They are spelunking former colonies to meet green energy targets, while those same countries struggle to progress. It is wrong and a lie. Most uranium bought by (EDF) France lately come from Canada, Australia, Kazakhstan and Ouzbekistan. Definitively not countries you can name as "Colonies".
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      Not only most of the bought fuel comes from other countries, including Canada, but 17% of their electro energy is generated by reprocessed nuclear fuel, also produced in France
- simondotau 3y ago
  Aside from supply chain inertia (and existing high demand for EVs) there's no practical obstacle stopping many mining operations moving to electric powered equipment, when such equipment becomes available.
smat 3y ago
At the same time France had to buy loads of electricity from Germany in the last year because several nuclear plants had to shut down due to a) maintenance problems and b) low rivers that could not provide sufficient cooling.
- maigret 3y ago
  And sometimes it's the opposite https://www.worldstopexports.com/electricity-exports-country/ https://www.worldstopexports.com/electricity-exports-country... True France's infrastructure is not resilient enough on climate, they are also a bit in denial over that. Everyone have their weaknesses.
- thingification 3y ago
  Ironically, I hear the ones that were shut down in Germany were some of the best maintained in the world and had very high "capacity factors" even when compared with other nuclear (fraction of time delivering power to the grid). It seems like the solution to poor maintenance is better maintenance? Some of the causes of recent poor French maintenance are analyzed here: https://player.fm/series/decouple/somethings-rotten-with-french-nuclear https://player.fm/series/decouple/somethings-rotten-with-fre... I assume you wouldn't seriously argue that rivers are the limiting factor to deployment of nuclear energy.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    It's not that ironic. Germans tend to do stuff right when they do it. The ironic thing to me is that Germany is so anti-nuclear.
    - rhaway84773 3y ago
      Being “anti nuclear” made a lot of sense until a madman decided to attack Ukraine. And with the world economy stabilizing after that mad man’s actions it’s again making a lot of sense as nuclear continues to be far more expensive than other renewable alternatives.
ceving 3y ago
This seems to assume that nuclear disposal is something clean.
- simondotau 3y ago
  What method of energy generation has a track record of "clean" disposal? Old solar panels usually end up in landfill. On a per-kilowatt-hour basis nuclear waste is pretty damn clean. The end product is carefully encased in absurdly over-engineered containment vessels. Environmental leaks are rare to non-existent. The aim is to store it underground where it will pose far less of a risk to humanity than the raw ore did before it was dug up.
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  Not clean, but contained.
fulafel 3y ago
To save others from looking it up: Germany's footprint per kWh above is about the same as USA (but USA consumption is nearly twice as bad per capita vs Germany). References: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 and https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=DE-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locat...

lopis 3y ago

It's.. complicated. Nuclear is super clean at the consumption site, but not super clean at the mining site [0]. And then there's the problem that France's access to cheap uranium is a relic of extractive colonialism, and these countries don't exactly see the fair profits from France's hunger for energy [1]. So yes, France's energy is cleaner, but it's a complicated picture. [0] https://meta.eeb.org/2017/10/18/french-state-owned-company-creates-ecocide-in-niger-to-fuel-its-nuclear-plants/ https://meta.eeb.org/2017/10/18/french-state-owned-company-c... [1] https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161954185.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161954185.pdf

cubefox 3y ago
> It's.. complicated. Nuclear is super clean at the consumption site, but not super clean at the mining site [0]. It's almost certainly not complicated. The CO2 produced by mining uranium is irrelevant compared to the CO2 produced by burning coal fuel. > And then there's the problem that France's access to cheap uranium is a relic of extractive colonialism, and these countries don't exactly see the fair profits from France's hunger for energy [1]. Uranium is not a large contributor to nuclear energy cost anyway, so this is no argument against nuclear energy. > So yes, France's energy is cleaner, but it's a complicated picture. I don't see how it is "complicated". Nuclear is clearly much better than Germany's coal+renewable. (Renewable-only was not an option since wind and solar are extremely volatile.)
- lopis 3y ago
  It's complicated in the political sense. They are spelunking former colonies to meet green energy targets, while those same countries struggle to progress.
  - mahkeiro 3y ago
    What are you talking about? Today less than 12% of French import of uranium are coming from Niger a former French colony. The main sources are Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Australia.
  - adev_ 3y ago
    > It's complicated in the political sense. They are spelunking former colonies to meet green energy targets, while those same countries struggle to progress. It is wrong and a lie. Most uranium bought by (EDF) France lately come from Canada, Australia, Kazakhstan and Ouzbekistan. Definitively not countries you can name as "Colonies".
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Not only most of the bought fuel comes from other countries, including Canada, but 17% of their electro energy is generated by reprocessed nuclear fuel, also produced in France
simondotau 3y ago
Aside from supply chain inertia (and existing high demand for EVs) there's no practical obstacle stopping many mining operations moving to electric powered equipment, when such equipment becomes available.

smat 3y ago

At the same time France had to buy loads of electricity from Germany in the last year because several nuclear plants had to shut down due to a) maintenance problems and b) low rivers that could not provide sufficient cooling.

maigret 3y ago
And sometimes it's the opposite https://www.worldstopexports.com/electricity-exports-country/ https://www.worldstopexports.com/electricity-exports-country... True France's infrastructure is not resilient enough on climate, they are also a bit in denial over that. Everyone have their weaknesses.
thingification 3y ago
Ironically, I hear the ones that were shut down in Germany were some of the best maintained in the world and had very high "capacity factors" even when compared with other nuclear (fraction of time delivering power to the grid). It seems like the solution to poor maintenance is better maintenance? Some of the causes of recent poor French maintenance are analyzed here: https://player.fm/series/decouple/somethings-rotten-with-french-nuclear https://player.fm/series/decouple/somethings-rotten-with-fre... I assume you wouldn't seriously argue that rivers are the limiting factor to deployment of nuclear energy.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  It's not that ironic. Germans tend to do stuff right when they do it. The ironic thing to me is that Germany is so anti-nuclear.
  - rhaway84773 3y ago
    Being “anti nuclear” made a lot of sense until a madman decided to attack Ukraine. And with the world economy stabilizing after that mad man’s actions it’s again making a lot of sense as nuclear continues to be far more expensive than other renewable alternatives.

ceving 3y ago

This seems to assume that nuclear disposal is something clean.

simondotau 3y ago
What method of energy generation has a track record of "clean" disposal? Old solar panels usually end up in landfill. On a per-kilowatt-hour basis nuclear waste is pretty damn clean. The end product is carefully encased in absurdly over-engineered containment vessels. Environmental leaks are rare to non-existent. The aim is to store it underground where it will pose far less of a risk to humanity than the raw ore did before it was dug up.
therealdrag0 3y ago
Not clean, but contained.

fulafel 3y ago

To save others from looking it up: Germany's footprint per kWh above is about the same as USA (but USA consumption is nearly twice as bad per capita vs Germany). References: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 and https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=DE-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locat...