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Electricity, maybe. Energy? I wish. This headline would be more true if we had transportation fully electrified and all buildings heated with heat pumps, but l

• a_bonobo 3y ago
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  • Aachen 3y ago
    Maybe this is my tech bubble, but try to find a country with higher Linux/PGP/OpenStreetMap use. I am still trying to put my finger on what the culture difference is precisely, but also outside of tech there's more thinking about what the right/correct/fair thing to do is, even if that brings greater net harm in the end. Example: closing down nuclear because it's not a perfect solution and has risks and waste (ignoring their proportions), in favor of renewables, not caring that renewables are decades away and it'll be replaced by maintaining coal for more years than it takes the world to trip a couple (predicted/expected) points of no return in climate change. By comparison, I found the Netherlands to be much more yolo. Live and let live, don't care as much if what they're doing is correct All generalisations, of course. You can find nazis and climate activists in the Netherlands as well as in Germany or anywhere else.
    • iSnow 3y ago
      With all due respect, renewables are not decades away, they are at a major inflection point right now. While I deplore the shuttering of Germany's NPPs, nuclear would not have been a solution to the decarbonization challenge, as the times to build NPPs and the costs are prohibitive. Renewables are the cheapest source of energy right here and now, we should invest way more into researching grid-scale storage solutions. Also not so sure about NL being more relaxed, they have a cultural war at their hands over nitrogen emissions from agriculture, and it has shaken up their political system.
      • myspy 3y ago
        We did choose to put solar on our roof with heat pump when we built our home only four years ago and at the time, there was no certainty if this investment will be any good. This year we also bought a battery and can run the house with this setup from spring to autumn with small input from the grid. Only winter sucks because the heat pump is less efficient when it's cold. Would be great to have better storage for the grid to get cheaper energy during that time.
      • eldaisfish 3y ago
        Renewables are the cheapest source of energy PROVIDED the cost of providing energy when they are generating zero energy is paid for by someone else. This argument keeps coming up and is entirely wrong and very misleading. Renewable energy due it its intermittent nature creates a problem and does nothing to solve that problem. The cost of that solution must be factored into the cost of energy from renewable generation.
        • iSnow 3y ago
          And which power source doesn't create externalities that are not factored into the price?
        • phicoh 3y ago
          There was a perfectly reasonable transition strategy. Install as much solar and wind turbines as possible and rely on natural gas plants are other times. Natural gas plants are relatively cheap and can in the future be converted to hydrogen. The big advantage is that solar and wind can directly reduce CO2 emissions, instead of waiting for decades for new nuclear power to come online. Converting heating of buildings to heat pumps and cars to electrical also directly reduces CO2 emissions even if you generate electricity from natural gas. There was one part where it went terribly wrong, and that was the idea source the natural gas almost exclusively from Russia...
    • martin_a 3y ago
      > not caring that renewables are decades away Pffft... If the government wuold decide to buy balcony solar systems for 1.000 Euro each for every household, that would come down to a mere 41 billion Euro for the whole state and that would solve lots of all of this. They found 100 billion for the Bundeswehr without any problem in the blink of an eye. If you really wanted, the whole energy topic would be set up and solved in a month, from there on it's steady execution.
      • llampx 3y ago
        Meanwhile in Berlin, the incoming government decided to half the amount earmarked for building and maintaining bike lanes. Climate change is the last thing on the German government's mind, no matter what they claim.
      • Aachen 3y ago
        You're forgetting that not everyone wants such a thing on their balcony and that you'll need to find someone to manufacture all of that (other countries want their solar still, too; it doesn't help us to deny Australia years of solar panel production only to put many on cloudy north-facing German balconies). I don't know what the acceptance percentage as well as a realistic manufacturing rate is at such an order size (probably pretty fast), but it sounds like you're assuming the answers are "near 100%" and "a few years".
        • martin_a 3y ago
          That's what I mean with let's figure it out and stick to execution. Production will probably not meet demand at first, but we need to get going. And we need to get going big. - Let's make it mandatory to install fixed solar systems for new development areas and any newly build commercial buildings. The state will subsidize 90% of the cost for the initial setup for private households, for companies it's just a tax deductible expense. - You want to retrofit your existing house with a fixed solar system? That's 90% subsizidation for you, too! - You have a multi-party house (details needed) or a professional housing company? You'll have to retrofit your buildings in 5 years of time from now on. - Let's retrofit all public buildings with solar systems. No excuses, execution asap. - The state will encourage research and development of energy storage sytems by providing funds to universities etc. We'll also need to have lots of laws changed and have our energy companies put in to place, but if the cost is low for the individual person, people will just make this happen. Yeah, it will cost some money, but the money is there, it's just an allocation problem.
    • johannes1234321 3y ago
      > but try to find a country with higher Linux/PGP/OpenStreetMap use. I am still trying to put my finger on what the culture difference is Those examples stem from Germany's strong care about privacy, which is rooted in the Nazi regime, showing how data can be used to discriminate people and then the surveillance in East Germany by the Stasi. While there are many aspects to critizise Germany did mostly well to educate the own population about the Nazi crimes (which also kept right wing parties out for a long period compared to other European countries, while that changes currently ...) In addition the West did propaganda against East and Stasi surveillance which told the West society about the dangers of surveillance (while at the same time CIA, NSA etc had quite some power in Germany ...) And then, after reunification, they didn't simply burn down Stasi and forget, but again did a huge program to study the surveillance programs and publishing about it and allowing everybody to request their Stasi file. Thus on the aspect of privacy the society is confronted with the risk. The other aspect about German culture is the pride about "German Engineering" thus thinking though and trying to avoid problems. This brought quite some industry, however in a highly dynamic field, like modern IT based systems it prevents coming up with solutions compared to the Silicon Valley "move fast and break things" attitude. Germany is. More like "move slow, but robust" Those in the early days, Germany was quite well with IT (think Use, Siemens, Nixdorf) but when the core engineering lost relevance and software took over lost ground, so that basically only SAP survived, which is a very German product, again. Also the Nuclear exit, I argue, is partially caused by the cold war: Chernobyl caused notable increase in radiation etc in Germany, where children were forbidden to play outside, hunting mushrooms was forbidden etc. and as being located directly on the iron curtain and as one could directly observe how differently the reporting in West and East Germany was (shared language across the fence ...) it was symbolized.
    • phicoh 3y ago
      The funny thing is that the end result is not that different between Germany and The Netherlands. The Netherlands has only 500 MW of nuclear power, because for historical reasons, The Netherlands didn't bother much with nuclear power to begin with. Germany has a higher percentage for electricity from renewables, because for a long time The Netherlands didn't really bother with that either. (The Netherlands is now at around 40% renewable electricity production, unfortunately that is only 15% of total energy use)
• pohuing 3y ago
  The issue in Germany is that this transition is expensive, even more so after 16 years of decay of everything from the past coalitions. And that makes the current coalition unpopular, along with an eternaly bickering liberals(in nothing but name) trying to block any spending. Add onto that Conservative tabloids continously firing against green with every scrap they can get, and we're looking at fascists polling over 30%. I I fear that the scraps of progress the current government achieves will be rolled back by a fascist+ Conservative coalition in three years...
  • karmakurtisaani 3y ago
    This is the new political landscape in Europe. By including the fascists, the conservatives roughly double their votes and don't need to compromise with the rest anymore. We're seeing this now in Finland and probably next in Germany. To me this is selfish and short-sighted in the short term, and outright dangerous in the long term.
    • pohuing 3y ago
      There's even historical precedent in Germany, but in their greed I fear they'll repeat the same mistakes from 100 years ago.
  • raverbashing 3y ago
    The activist groups like Last Generation, etc are doing a brilliant job of making ecological movements look like complete buffoons at this time In fact I kinda hope they are a lobby financed agitprop operation because I couldn't think of a more entitled group outside of the London Houses of Parliament
  • JanSt 3y ago
    the current coalition did massive ecological damage by not keeping the six nuclear power plants running. In 2021 they produced more energy than all installed solar combined. It would have been an easy move that would have granted us 10+ more years runway for the transformation of the heating systems. It's an illogical move to take that clean energy out and force massive costs on the people they can't really prepare for. The FDP is losing voters left and right, because they do nothing but stopping even worse politics from the coalition. They are the one thing holding back Germany from going into an unstoppable downward spiral. Germany is already rapidly losing parts of our industry, going into a recession while the burdens on social systems will soon explode. And instead of any solutions for the real problems, the SPD and Greens just want to increase taxes, driving away even more highly qualified people.
• lopis 3y ago
  In the meantime, Switzerland is installing solar panels on train tracks [0] instead of, I don't know, people's roofs. There is so much promising tech coming out in terms of energy storage and we're seeing almost zero investment from governments. Everything's backwards. [0] https://www.techspot.com/news/98944-switzerland-installing-solar-panels-gap-between-train-tracks.html https://www.techspot.com/news/98944-switzerland-installing-s...
  • sparkling 3y ago
    Why are people so obsessed with "solar roadways" or "solar train tracks"? This is a joke, a gimmick, it makes absolutely no sense. Well, except for the startups that are getting massive subsidies and grants for these clown projects. There are still millions of open-space square meters all over the country. Think of flat-roof warehouses, supermarkets, parking facilities and more. Those places are easy to access, easy to install, easy to maintain. These train track installments however.... hard to install, require non-standardized panel sizes, non-standard wiring, special equipment, are in a dusty/dirty uncontrollable environment, maintenance is only possible in coordination with the train company. My guess is that these things are 4-5x more expensive on a per kwH basis, if you consider the total cost of ownership.
    • the-dude 3y ago
      Most of the roofs you mention are not built to support load.
      • atoav 3y ago
        As someone from the Alps, I'd really see a source on that. Most alpine roofs are built to survive extreme snow loads. My father just covered his roof in solar and that roof was built in the 70s.
      • rasz 3y ago
        Thats why they are dismantled every year just before winder and rebuild after last snow melts.
      • 3y ago
• TomK32 3y ago
  Heating is one thing we have tackle, but also transportation which uses up 27.1% of energy in German. Individual transportation should be a main target, we would all shift from cars to public transport or bicycles. About 40% of distances driven with cars are shorter than 5 kilometers, a distance that's perfect for a bicycle. On top of that, car owners tend to underestimate the cost of their cars[1] [0] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/daten/energie/energieverbrauch-nach-energietraegern-sektoren#entwicklung-des-endenergieverbrauchs-nach-sektoren-und-energietragern https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/daten/energie/energieverbrauc... [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w
  • 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    > Heating is one thing we have tackle we have _to_ tackle or we have tackle_d_? duh ... -- i am german and i find sloppy use of language annoying especially if it invites orthogonal interpretation. people should reread what they write publicly and then fix it if necessary.
    • JanSt 3y ago
      eagerly waiting for you to respond in German
      • ben_w 3y ago
        "Englische Sprache, schwere Sprache." (There's a saying which surprised me when I moved here: https://lal.de/blog/deutsche-sprache-schwere-sprache/ https://lal.de/blog/deutsche-sprache-schwere-sprache/)
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    • techperson20007 3y ago
      Are you seriously shaming a non-native speaker for their English right now? smh…
  • 3y ago
• ozim 3y ago
  Sorry on the nitpicking - we will have to dig into our pockets even if government does something. Government does not have magic money it is also “our money”. One would say government would levy fees on big companies but then companies will charge customers more.
  • dermesser 3y ago
    Governments issue money, so yes they kind of do have magic money. Certainly a different access to money than private entities.
    • ozim 3y ago
      When they issue more money - money in my pocket lose value, still same thing.
      • rhaway84773 3y ago
        This is not true. That only happens if the money supply exceeds the productive capacity of the economy. If the government didn’t issue any money and economies continued growing (which wouldn’t happen because you need slack in the money supply to allow for growth) there would be deflation. So the government could issue money in a growing economy and still see deflation, until the ratio hits a tipping point.
  • Aachen 3y ago
    Of course yes, but most people seem to be waiting to let the government mop up the problems and aren't spending anything themselves that isn't advertised as a guaranteed investment like solar panels where the electricity company has to pay you for the service of dissipating your excess energy (bluntly put). We need to realise that, at least until the government starts spending big (because it's basically too late for the perfect outcome already, the best we can do is mitigate even bigger disasters), the only other option is do it ourselves.
• benj111 3y ago
  On a perhaps pedantic note. Why does energy used never include the sun directly? In the summer we use less heat because the sun is giving us the energy instead. So maybe we should be counting the heating we don't use during the summer as renewable heat instead. I suppose this would help account for efficiency also. If a house is deemed to need X kWh to heat a year. The difference between the gas used can be used to derive a figure for the 'renewable' energy used, whether from renewable electricity, solar heat, or negawatts.