5 ms·

North and South should not be in air-quotes. They're correct, by definition. "Top" and "bottom", however, can be air-quoted. There's nothing that says north

North and South should not be in air-quotes. They're correct, by definition. "Top" and "bottom", however, can be air-quoted. There's nothing that says north equals "top"; north and south are arbitrary, and are just terms chosen to designate the two poles. The only reason people think north=top is because most maps are oriented that way.

defrost 3y ago
North and South are arbitrary and subject to change though; at least 183 reversals over the last 83 million years [-1]. Unless you mean spin direction about axis, and even so a spinning top can also flip. [-1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
- throwaway290 3y ago
  If you flip North can change from "top" to "bottom" or from "bottom" to "top" depending on your map. But it doesn't stop being North, which is a fairly well defined concept. Hence no air quotes.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > But it doesn't stop being North, which is a fairly well defined concept. Can you cite the definition please? My understanding, from 40 years of geodesy and cartography, was that it was a fairly recent (post 16th Century) convention and many many significant older maps orientate in quite different ways. eg: http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartographycolonialismnortheurocentricglobe.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartograph...
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      per Wikipedia "By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north", so I guess I was wrong.
      - midoridensha 3y ago
        Huh? This doesn't make sense. Lots of modern maps even have north pointing somewhere other than up, though they use a marker to indicate which way is north. It doesn't matter which way you point a piece of paper: the North Pole is always going to be the North Pole, and the South Pole is always going to be in Antarctica (until the continent drifts, though the pole will still be there). The names of these poles may have been originally chosen centuries ago because popular maps pointed that way, but now those names are fixed by definition.
        throwaway290 3y ago
        How about a better definition and a source for it then? :)
        midoridensha 3y ago
        You need a source to tell you where the north and south poles are located? Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole
        throwaway290 3y ago
        So you link to Wikipedia. OK. You see that it defines North pole in terms of Northern hemisphere. Now if you follow the links through you will see that Wikipedia defines North as "where the up on the map is". Qed.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        If I'm standing on the Moon, looking at the Earth, I can see which side is North because of the arrangement of the continents. I don't need to have a paper map with me. The whole thing doesn't make sense. Finally, you're just plain wrong, and you're reading Wikipedia wrongly. According to the page for "North", >The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "left; below" as north is to left when facing the rising sun. Similarly, the other cardinal directions are also related to the sun's position. So the definition is derived from the Sun's position, not some stupid paper map. You're probably reading this part: >By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north. That just says that maps are normally oriented with North pointing up. It doesn't say that "north" is defined* that way.

defrost 3y ago

North and South are arbitrary and subject to change though; at least 183 reversals over the last 83 million years [-1]. Unless you mean spin direction about axis, and even so a spinning top can also flip. [-1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

throwaway290 3y ago
If you flip North can change from "top" to "bottom" or from "bottom" to "top" depending on your map. But it doesn't stop being North, which is a fairly well defined concept. Hence no air quotes.
- defrost 3y ago
  > But it doesn't stop being North, which is a fairly well defined concept. Can you cite the definition please? My understanding, from 40 years of geodesy and cartography, was that it was a fairly recent (post 16th Century) convention and many many significant older maps orientate in quite different ways. eg: http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartographycolonialismnortheurocentricglobe.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/maps-cartograph...
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    per Wikipedia "By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north", so I guess I was wrong.
    - midoridensha 3y ago
      Huh? This doesn't make sense. Lots of modern maps even have north pointing somewhere other than up, though they use a marker to indicate which way is north. It doesn't matter which way you point a piece of paper: the North Pole is always going to be the North Pole, and the South Pole is always going to be in Antarctica (until the continent drifts, though the pole will still be there). The names of these poles may have been originally chosen centuries ago because popular maps pointed that way, but now those names are fixed by definition.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        How about a better definition and a source for it then? :)
        midoridensha 3y ago
        You need a source to tell you where the north and south poles are located? Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pole
        throwaway290 3y ago
        So you link to Wikipedia. OK. You see that it defines North pole in terms of Northern hemisphere. Now if you follow the links through you will see that Wikipedia defines North as "where the up on the map is". Qed.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        If I'm standing on the Moon, looking at the Earth, I can see which side is North because of the arrangement of the continents. I don't need to have a paper map with me. The whole thing doesn't make sense. Finally, you're just plain wrong, and you're reading Wikipedia wrongly. According to the page for "North", >The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "left; below" as north is to left when facing the rising sun. Similarly, the other cardinal directions are also related to the sun's position. So the definition is derived from the Sun's position, not some stupid paper map. You're probably reading this part: >By convention, the top or upward-facing side of a map is north. That just says that maps are normally oriented with North pointing up. It doesn't say that "north" is defined* that way.