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> Your comment seems to be conflating concurrency with parallelism. No, it really doesn't. I mention both concurrency and parallelism, and their main differenc

> Your comment seems to be conflating concurrency with parallelism. No, it really doesn't. I mention both concurrency and parallelism, and their main difference. > Threads are the opposite: They are interfaces for parallel programming No, they are not. Threads can do both. When waiting for an i/o bound operation, a thread can simply sleep. Added bonus: A thread basd implementation supports io bound concurrency and cpu bound parallelism using the exact same principle, and letting the kernel/runtime take care of the details. > are you telling me you never write a mutex or implement locking logic? Pretty sure I never said that. As for what I prefer to debug: Most Mutex-based synchronicity tasks that come up in practice are easy. And if "complex deadlock" does occur, it's usually pretty clear what resource was locked. Debugging that is just a question of going over all callers that access that resource. And as mentioned before, all that code is synchronous. So each one of them is easy to reason about. So yea, all in all, I prefer debugging problems arising from deadlocks over wading through callback-hell. By a huge margin. Oh, and all that is before we even talk about using CSP as an approach to synchronizing threads, which makes it both harder to mess up, and again easier to reason about.

3np 3y ago
> It didn't start because it is so awesome, it started because JS can't do parallel any other way. That's the long and short of it If the comment is not conflating concurrency and parallelism as you say, mind expanding on this part?
- nvy 3y ago
  But concurrency is just "single core parallelism" anyways, so this isn't really germane to the discussion. JS has neither.
  - Sinidir 3y ago
    Concurrency is not "single core parallelism". Concurrency describes tasks/threads of execution making independent progress of each other. Parallelism describes tasks/threads actually running at the same time.
    - nvy 3y ago
      >Concurrency is not "single core parallelism" Of course it is. Concurrency gives the impression to the user that parallel processing is being done, even when it's not. That's why my parents old 386 could render a moving mouse cursor and a progress bar at the same time (usually). Concurrency lets you do things "in parallel" even if you can't actually do them in parallel.
- usrbinbash 3y ago
  > mind expanding on this part? Certainly. That part is a sentence written to be short and catchy. It sacrifices precision for reasons of brevity and style. It also doesnt mention either concurrency or parallelism, it just uses the word "parallel". This is acceptable, because the post goes on to more precise statements later on, quote: It works for both i/o bound concurrency and cpu bound parallel computing. End Quote.
FiberBundle 3y ago
> When waiting for an i/o bound operation, a thread can simply sleep. I mean if you're fine with blocking I/O then obviously you don't need async, but on the other hand having non-blocking I/O is the whole point of async ^^
- mohaine 3y ago
  It really just depends on what you mean by non-blocking I/O. Most node code I see in the wild is just a simple `await loadData()` which doesn't block the main node thread but does block that code flow until the data returns. This is roughly the same as what would happen in a normal blocking multithreaded language other than the extra overhead of a thread. If you don't have enough threads (or they are efficent enough in your language of choice) for this overhead to be an issue then you are adding all this complexity for almost no benefit. Basically it comes down to if you trust your language of choice's threads more or less than your language of choice's event scheduler. Since Node is fully single threaded there isn't really an option but with other languages, a single thread per worker is much simpler. In python it is even more opaque which to use as the CPython itself is singled threaded so you are comparing its thread implementation to its event scheduler implementation. For this small win you get to rewrite all your code to new, none-standard apis.
  - dwaite 3y ago
    > It really just depends on what you mean by non-blocking I/O. > Most node code I see in the wild is just a simple `await loadData()` which doesn't block the main node thread but does block that code flow until the data returns. Agreed. Higher level languages tend to discourage or outright decide not to expose asynchronous I/O. Instead, they optimize blocking I/O within their own runtime - skipping the higher resource needs for the system schedule and thread representation. If I am writing a web server in C or C++, I'm likely writing asynchronous I/O directly. I may also decide to use custom memory strategies, such as pooling allocators. If I write one in classic Java, I'm allocating two threads to represent input and output for each active connection, and hoping the JVM knows how to make that mass of threads efficient. In Go, I'm likely using a lot of goroutines and again hoping the language runtime/standard library figured out how to make that efficient. Java packages like NIO/Netty and Go packages like gaio are what expose asynchronous programming to the developer. The footgun is that it is hard to use an asynchronous I/O package when you have a deep dependency tree that may contain blocking code, perhaps in some third party package. This was one of the attractions to server-side javascript; other than a few local filesystem operations, everything sticks to the same concurrency model (even if they may interact with it as callbacks, promises or async/await)

3np 3y ago

> It didn't start because it is so awesome, it started because JS can't do parallel any other way. That's the long and short of it If the comment is not conflating concurrency and parallelism as you say, mind expanding on this part?

nvy 3y ago
But concurrency is just "single core parallelism" anyways, so this isn't really germane to the discussion. JS has neither.
- Sinidir 3y ago
  Concurrency is not "single core parallelism". Concurrency describes tasks/threads of execution making independent progress of each other. Parallelism describes tasks/threads actually running at the same time.
  - nvy 3y ago
    >Concurrency is not "single core parallelism" Of course it is. Concurrency gives the impression to the user that parallel processing is being done, even when it's not. That's why my parents old 386 could render a moving mouse cursor and a progress bar at the same time (usually). Concurrency lets you do things "in parallel" even if you can't actually do them in parallel.
usrbinbash 3y ago
> mind expanding on this part? Certainly. That part is a sentence written to be short and catchy. It sacrifices precision for reasons of brevity and style. It also doesnt mention either concurrency or parallelism, it just uses the word "parallel". This is acceptable, because the post goes on to more precise statements later on, quote: It works for both i/o bound concurrency and cpu bound parallel computing. End Quote.

FiberBundle 3y ago

> When waiting for an i/o bound operation, a thread can simply sleep. I mean if you're fine with blocking I/O then obviously you don't need async, but on the other hand having non-blocking I/O is the whole point of async ^^

mohaine 3y ago
It really just depends on what you mean by non-blocking I/O. Most node code I see in the wild is just a simple `await loadData()` which doesn't block the main node thread but does block that code flow until the data returns. This is roughly the same as what would happen in a normal blocking multithreaded language other than the extra overhead of a thread. If you don't have enough threads (or they are efficent enough in your language of choice) for this overhead to be an issue then you are adding all this complexity for almost no benefit. Basically it comes down to if you trust your language of choice's threads more or less than your language of choice's event scheduler. Since Node is fully single threaded there isn't really an option but with other languages, a single thread per worker is much simpler. In python it is even more opaque which to use as the CPython itself is singled threaded so you are comparing its thread implementation to its event scheduler implementation. For this small win you get to rewrite all your code to new, none-standard apis.
- dwaite 3y ago
  > It really just depends on what you mean by non-blocking I/O. > Most node code I see in the wild is just a simple `await loadData()` which doesn't block the main node thread but does block that code flow until the data returns. Agreed. Higher level languages tend to discourage or outright decide not to expose asynchronous I/O. Instead, they optimize blocking I/O within their own runtime - skipping the higher resource needs for the system schedule and thread representation. If I am writing a web server in C or C++, I'm likely writing asynchronous I/O directly. I may also decide to use custom memory strategies, such as pooling allocators. If I write one in classic Java, I'm allocating two threads to represent input and output for each active connection, and hoping the JVM knows how to make that mass of threads efficient. In Go, I'm likely using a lot of goroutines and again hoping the language runtime/standard library figured out how to make that efficient. Java packages like NIO/Netty and Go packages like gaio are what expose asynchronous programming to the developer. The footgun is that it is hard to use an asynchronous I/O package when you have a deep dependency tree that may contain blocking code, perhaps in some third party package. This was one of the attractions to server-side javascript; other than a few local filesystem operations, everything sticks to the same concurrency model (even if they may interact with it as callbacks, promises or async/await)